Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

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Force
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Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Force » 12 June 2013, 23:39

Theory Bowl:

I created a new Human Team. I purchased 4 Linemen, 4 Blitzers, 2 Throwers and 4 Catchers. I saved up the remaining 20K in my Treasury. My league uses the "Free Fan Factor" optional rule.

In my very first game i ran into an evil Chaos Team and got absolutely trashed. All of my Players are either dead or missing the next game. So my Team Value for the next game is exactly 0.

The next game i play is vs. a TV 4.700K Wood Elf team.

I get 4.700K Inducements so i buy:

2 Blood Wiser Babes, a Wizard, 2 Wandering Apothecaries, 3 Bribes, 4 Extra Training, a Halfling Master Chef, 2 Mercenary Throwers with Accurate, 4 Mercenary Linemen with Dirty Player, 4 Mercenary Catchers with Block, 4 Mercenary Blitzers with Tackle, the Star Player Griff Oberwald, the Star Player Morg 'n' Thorg and 1 "Desperate Measures" Special Play Card.

I draw "Assasin".

Who wins the Game, the Humans or the Wood Elves?

Fight! ^^

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Managarn
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Managarn » 13 June 2013, 00:34

You have already been told in another thread that inducement doesnt totally make up for the tv difference and that chance to win gets lower and lower the bigger the gap in tv between the two teams is and you just took that to the extreme. There is statistical evidence that demonstrate it.


Assuming both are equally skilled player, the wood elves will usually win(probably all the time in my opinion since theres not much stopping several str 5 agility 6 elves)

Force
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Force » 13 June 2013, 07:24

No, this ignores a couple of Facts, for example that the first skill is a six times more valuable improvement than the sixth skill.
It makes a hell of a difference if a Wood Elf lineman has Block or not, but after that, what should i take?

A Team that has this high Team Value has to have played a lot of games and suffered a lot of injuries, so theres not only stats increases, there is also stats drops that dont factor into its Team value at all. When i am bored at work, i will post that TV 4.700 Wood Elf roster...

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dode74
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby dode74 » 13 June 2013, 08:11

You're theorybowling, which is fine, but the assertion that inducements don't totally make up the difference is from real data from several hundred thousand games, and those certainly do take injuries into account.

Yes, later skills are less valuable than initial skills in most cases (doubles/stats), but that doesn't make the team worse, it just means the return diminishes. The same is true of inducements: your first few will be the ones you want most (often the wizard), but once you've taken those then what next? You can only take one wizard, 3 bribes, 1 chef, 2 babes etc. At some point you are down to taking unskilled mercs, which are 30k extra, or even skilled mercs, which are 80k (i.e. a whole player in most cases) extra, and they are almost certainly less efficient than rostered players.
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Force
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Force » 13 June 2013, 08:54

Special Play Cards

Plus, if the Inducement System actually was used
(it isn't by FUMBBL and it isn't by Cyanide)

Then there would be a balancing discussion.
You could argue if up to 4 Star Players should be allowed, or if Desperate Measures should be drawn for 200 and PICKED for 400, things like that.

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dode74
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby dode74 » 13 June 2013, 09:02

Inducement descriptions on page 69 of LRB6 lists:
0-2 Bloodweiser Babes (50k each)
0-3 Bribes (100k each unless goblins, then 50k each)
0-4 Extra Team Training (rerolls at 100k each)
0-1 Halfling Master Chef (300k unless Halflings, then 100k)
0-1 Igor (non-apo teams for 100k)
Unlimited Mercs (+30k base cost, +50k for normal skill)
0-2 Star Players (variable)
0-2 Wandering Apothecaries (100k each)
0-1 Wizard (150k)

Special Play Cards are not a standard inducement, they are an optional league rule as listed at page 34, which also lists the optional rule of excluding inducements for league play among others.

What makes you think the inducement system, as per LRB6 page 69, isn't used on FUMBBL or Cyanide? I'll grant the lack of stars on Cyanide, but the vast majority of the data was from FUMBBL anyway...
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MattDakka
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby MattDakka » 13 June 2013, 12:36

On FUMBBL the Special Play cards (with the exception of the Magic Items deck) are the only missing inducement.
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Force
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Force » 13 June 2013, 12:38

Have you followed Jervis Johnson in the playtesters vault?

The inducement system is MEANT to enable any team to play any team with the game still being WORTHWHILE OF THE PLAYING TIME.
It is NOT meant to totally balance out the matchup.
It is NOT meant to match Teams of the same Team Value

Its you playing someone else and if you got the higher Team Value you have to deal with him bringing an extra Ogre. Or if you have the lower Team Value you having to deal with your first touchdown being blown up by a Wizard.

The optional rules are part of the official rulebook and meant for customizing leagues (=a group of friends) to fit either the taste of the league or its commissioner (the guy who organizes everything).

Using the special play cards optional rule is the obvious choice if you want Inducements to help the underdog.

Just imagine an scheduled league of 8 Teams where you HAVE TO play a total of 14 games back and fourth. Scheduled. No cherrypicking no challenging, no nothing, you have to play against the next team you are scheduled to play against. In the old days, people quit, because once a team was broken,there was pretty much no point in continuing to play at all. With the inducements as a handicap system and balancing mechanic you can at least put up a good fight, with ANY against ANY other team that is.

Cyanide does not even have Stars btw.

Force
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Joined: 09 June 2009, 11:46

Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Force » 13 June 2013, 12:41

On FUMBBL the Special Play cards (with the exception of the Magic Items deck) are the only missing inducement.
There is no division at FUMBBL that matches ANY Team vs. ANY Team allowing the inducements system to be FULLY used.

What is the highest TV difference FUMBBL allows? 700K?

Itchen Masack
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Itchen Masack » 13 June 2013, 12:44

Where's Mike when you need him? Someone needs a Voodooing :P


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