Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

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dode74
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby dode74 » 13 June 2013, 12:57

Have you followed Jervis Johnson in the playtesters vault?

The inducement system is MEANT to enable any team to play any team with the game still being WORTHWHILE OF THE PLAYING TIME.
It is NOT meant to totally balance out the matchup.
It is NOT meant to match Teams of the same Team Value
Well aware of that. The aim was to give the underdog a 30-35% win%, and that seems to have been achieved when the TV difference is above 300 or so.
The optional rules are part of the official rulebook and meant for customizing leagues (=a group of friends) to fit either the taste of the league or its commissioner (the guy who organizes everything).

Using the special play cards optional rule is the obvious choice if you want Inducements to help the underdog.
If you're going to use optional rules then you need to specify beforehand. And if you're going for optional rules then I choose the "no inducements" one.
Just imagine an scheduled league of 8 Teams where you HAVE TO play a total of 14 games back and fourth. Scheduled. No cherrypicking no challenging, no nothing, you have to play against the next team you are scheduled to play against. In the old days, people quit, because once a team was broken,there was pretty much no point in continuing to play at all. With the inducements as a handicap system and balancing mechanic you can at least put up a good fight, with ANY against ANY other team that is.
Is this supposed to be insightful?
Cyanide does not even have Stars btw.
Not all of them, but it does have some.
There is no division at FUMBBL that matches ANY Team vs. ANY Team allowing the inducements system to be FULLY used.

What is the highest TV difference FUMBBL allows? 700K?
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Force
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Force » 13 June 2013, 13:11

Its not about the winning ratio, its about if a game MAKES SENSE and is FUN TO PLAY.
Those criteria have to apply to the typical blood bowl coach which means he can take some abuse, has a sense of humor and expects the unexpected. The underdog win ratio of 33% is a number that came out of the process of finding out what odds such a coach is willing to go up against.

The scenario is this:
"Well your big boob amazon beauties will probably (66%) win this game, but I sure as hell will do some beauty surgery of my own with that shiny new death roller so bring it on!"

THAT is the spirit of these rules, assuming that you play a variety of games, sometimes on the giving and sometimes on the receiving end of the inducement system.

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Darkson
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Darkson » 13 June 2013, 15:57

The underdog win ratio of 33% is a number that came out of the process of finding out what odds such a coach is willing to go up against.
No it didn't - it came out of arguing Jervis down from his original goal of Inducements balancing a match out 50/50.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Force
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Force » 13 June 2013, 16:03

Yeah, that's because people said: Wait a minute if I am the superior then 50% winning chance is not realistic neither in real sports nor fantasy sports and it does not feel right and it isn't fun.

I mean look at it this way: in 33% of all Blood Bowl matches you can expect an upset. Upsets are great, and that's because they are not the usual thing to happen. I mean everyone likes Timo Boll to beat the crap out of Ma Long, right? Because he's not supposed to, but we know he can if things go his way. That's great sports and great entertainment.

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VoodooMike
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby VoodooMike » 13 June 2013, 21:15

Where's Mike when you need him?
I am everywhere and in all things, my son. Open your heart to the sky, and I am there.
Its not about the winning ratio, its about if a game MAKES SENSE and is FUN TO PLAY.
"Fun" is a subjective measure, and when you're creating a game you don't try to guess what people will find fun because it's so varied as to be futile. Instead you ask yourself "what will the vast majority of people NOT find fun" and try to eliminate that from your design. Most people don't enjoy playing games they're destined to lose... in fact, most people don't enjoy playing games in which they are genuinely aware that the deck is stacked against them as compared to other players. They'll play games in which their chance of losing is better than their chance of winning if that's true for all the other players too, such as Blackjack, or the Lottery... but very few people are interesting in volunteering to be the punching bag for other human players based solely on seniority.

So, what MAKES SENSE is to create as even matches as possible in any matchmaking environment... even in terms of likelihood of victory. Why? Because A) we know inducements don't bridge the gap and B) we know most people prefer to test their personal skill against the other coach's personal skill rather than be hammered down by the dice, which is what happens if the other guy has a much better developed team. Some people don't mind, but those people also don't mind playing even games. There are certainly some folks who want to play games in which they are just trashing someone who has very little chance of victory, but very few people are interested in being that trashed team. So, we apply the rawlsian veil of ignorance and say that what will make people happiest, in general, is as even matches as possible. For Cyanide and FUMBBL, the best variable they had for that was TV at the time their MM environments were designed.

Statistical analysis have suggested some superior alternatives, but "just randomly match any two people together and apply inducements by TV difference" is decidedly worse than TV for this purpose.
THAT is the spirit of these rules, assuming that you play a variety of games, sometimes on the giving and sometimes on the receiving end of the inducement system.
The average BB team plays around 5 total (median). They don't play a variety of games. The average TV is in the 1200-1300 range, meaning that, on average, teams will most likely be the underdog in the first 2-3 matches played under the system you propose. In your mind that probably suggests they'll want to play even more games to try to make up the difference, after suffering unfair matches. In reality, the 5 game median would just go down because the coach would be having less fun by being the bitch in the initial matches.
I mean look at it this way: in 33% of all Blood Bowl matches you can expect an upset. Upsets are great, and that's because they are not the usual thing to happen. I mean everyone likes Timo Boll to beat the crap out of Ma Long, right? Because he's not supposed to, but we know he can if things go his way. That's great sports and great entertainment.
So entertaining that we should expect to see heavy underdogs challenging upward in Ranked or Auld right? Turns out people aren't really that entertained by having a worse chance of winning than their opponent, and tend not to choose to be in that position. They'll suffer through it in scheduled league settings, but there doesn't seem to be a ton of interest in voluntarily being in that position.
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

Itchen Masack
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Itchen Masack » 14 June 2013, 07:10

Aaaaah. I can sleep easy now. The warrior hath returned :-D

Force
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Force » 14 June 2013, 11:42

You mean the Jon Snow of the Blood Bowl community? The guy who knows nothing?

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Darkson
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Re: Theory Bowl: TV 0 Humans vs. TV 4.700 Wood Elves

Postby Darkson » 14 June 2013, 16:00

No, that's you.

Are you still pushing Tobybowl? Those rules made me laugh, I was glad to get a copy (I think I still have them saved somewhere - runs off to look).
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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TalkFantasyFootball admin - PM me if you need help.
Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.


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