Format Adjustment Suggestions

Sneeker134
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Joined: 02 April 2017, 19:05

Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby Sneeker134 » 02 April 2017, 19:58

One of them is getting denied at least hundred euro they probably otherwise get.
Denied? And what about the other people who might have to play either one of them in other rounds? Are they not being "denied" if we suddenly start seeding? Sorry, but that makes little sense to me: you're assuming performance which we are yet to measure.
Seeding in tournaments exist in many games for obvious reasons.
Seeding exists so that "the best" do not meet each other until later rounds. But we're not playing "the best" of the same against each other, we're playing "the best" of each race against each other, and the whole point of the KO tournament is to find out which of those is "the best". They're already seeded within their own race since they came top. To that end we basically have a whole bunch of #1 seeds. The ladder competition is really 16 individual competitions and the top 1 of each competition advances.
There are plenty of examples of tournaments where there is no seeding (e.g. the FA cup).
To be fair, I'm fairly certain MOST tournaments do have seeding for the reason that teams that performed better in the normal season, as it rewards those with better performances. Does finishing number one on the ladder mean nothing? Regardless of the race they choose to pick, I think its safe to say the person that wins the ladder will almost all of the time be better then whoever qualifies with the worst record.

Since these better players will be the ones that place higher on the ladder, seeding makes it less likely that the best players will have to face each other early on. Obviously you want the best players to be the ones who win the tourney. Seeding helps make that happen. Not seeding at all implies that how high you place in the ladder isn't indicative of skill at all; only how you stack up against others of your race. To me, that just doesn't seem like it is the case.

Mulldripster
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Joined: 15 November 2016, 16:45

Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby Mulldripster » 02 April 2017, 20:00

I don't believe a seeding-system of highest ranked qualifying team on the leaderboard against the lowest ranked team is fair. The reason being that some races are harder to get a good record with than others. For example, it's rough to get a good start with Nurgle unless you are really lucky/fantastic.

I have been #1 on the leaderboard 3 seasons out of 4 (GG) and I wouldn't mind being seeded against "worse" opponents, I just don't see a fair way to determine the seeding.

Scuromezzo
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Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby Scuromezzo » 02 April 2017, 20:33

Didn't Jimmy get to something like 3rd on the leaderboard with Nurgle, Mull? Seems like its quite possible to get a good start with a team like that. Were seeding in place, him deciding to take his lower ranked, but arguably much nastier, Chaos team would have come at the cost of risking playing a far superior coach than he may get paired off against.

Its pretty insane to have a knockout tournament without seeding. The data that supports my assertion: The NFL, the MLB, the NHL, the NBA, and all those silly sports non Americans play. I think there's even some game being played tonight that's part of some March based madness that is one of the most gambled on tournaments on the planet... and as it happens two of the 4 #1 seeds are playing in it. Seems like a much higher quality grand final than two shitter 16 seeds that only qualified by playing dozens of other shitter teams. That's not to say those 16 seeds didn't have a shot... But if they got to open the tourney playing each other... would their advancements on the brackets really mean anything?

In short. I'm not sure who this Fashbinder fellow is, but he seems to make an excellent point and I think this competition would be far better off with his suggestions.

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dode74
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Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby dode74 » 02 April 2017, 21:05

Does finishing number one on the ladder mean nothing?
In short, in terms of this competition, no. Again, to reiterate: the ladder is not intended to rank coaches against each other for the purposes of the KO tournament. The point is to find the best performing team of each race for the tournament. Seeding doesn't help that.
Not seeding at all implies that how high you place in the ladder isn't indicative of skill at all; only how you stack up against others of your race.
The latter is all we are interested in. If it were the former we'd take the top 16 regardless of race.
Its pretty insane to have a knockout tournament without seeding. The data that supports my assertion: The NFL, the MLB, the NHL, the NBA, and all those silly sports non Americans play.
Some do, some don't. The FA Cup in the UK does not use seeding; neither does the Champions' League once the KO phase starts - you know, those silly sports non Americans play ;)
There are plenty of examples of sports which do use seeding and plenty where they do not.

I do understand your arguments for it, but I don't think the goal of the ladder is to provide seeding positions for teams which aren't directly competing with each other for places but to instead filter out the top team of each race which then goes into a random draw for the knockouts. I think Nuffle would approve of the randomness!
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Mulldripster
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Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby Mulldripster » 02 April 2017, 21:16

Didn't Jimmy get to something like 3rd on the leaderboard with Nurgle, Mull?
Yes. Read my comment again. He is quite Fantastic! :D

Scuromezzo
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Joined: 30 June 2016, 19:10

Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby Scuromezzo » 02 April 2017, 22:02

Forgive me for my lack of understanding these complicated tournaments like the FA Cup... But nobody in the FA Cup is awarded a bye for scheduling purposes? And of those no people that receive those no byes, the teams from the highest ranked leagues aren't awarded them, to give them a competitive advantage/reward by entering the tournament later than those less skilled teams from less skilled leagues? I suppose if that were the case, than yeah, the FA cup wouldn't function similar to the above suggestions.

As to the Champions league... This one is really hard for me to follow but maybe its my language barrier trying to understand British English instead of American English. But when the eight group winners are "seeded" to be drawn against the eight group runners up to set up the knockout round... How aren't they using a form of seeding? It seems like they are saying the 8 top teams will get to face a team that is a runner up. Sure, I suppose the runner up could be better than the group winner depending on the results of the individual groups... But it still seems like the strategy is to reward the better performing teams a slight competitive advantage for their first round matches.

Sneeker134
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Joined: 02 April 2017, 19:05

Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby Sneeker134 » 02 April 2017, 22:18

I do understand your arguments for it, but I don't think the goal of the ladder is to provide seeding positions for teams which aren't directly competing with each other for places but to instead filter out the top team of each race which then goes into a random draw for the knockouts. I think Nuffle would approve of the randomness!
Ya, I guess that makes sense. It just seems kinda odd that there is a leader board, but the ranking on the leader board only matters against certain teams.

JimmyFantastic
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Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby JimmyFantastic » 02 April 2017, 22:23

The leaderboard should really be filterable by race (coming in LE?)
I don't think seeding is needed at all, it's only in sports so they make more money.
I would like to see the return of wild cards, and seeing as there are 16 races I think top 2 of each race would be fine.
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CalciumCas
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Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby CalciumCas » 02 April 2017, 22:27

I would like to see the return of wild cards, and seeing as there are 16 races I think top 2 of each race would be fine.
Isn't more races coming? That might be an issue in the future, but I love the idea of wildcards...and I think it would encourage more play during the Ladder too.

I also agree that seeding is not needed here.
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JimmyFantastic
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Re: Format Adjustment Suggestions

Postby JimmyFantastic » 02 April 2017, 22:28

Yes, come Legendary there will be 24 races and therefore 8 wildcards makes sense then.
Seeing as it will inevitably expand to 32 teams eventually why not start now?
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