Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision TV!

The latest news and announcements for the Blood Bowl video games.
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Koadah
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Koadah » 02 August 2013, 12:36

Quote are not necessary in a "let's agree to disagree" post. ;)
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Zunk » 02 August 2013, 14:05

No, sorry, Kevin Bacon wasn't in Footloose...

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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Dalryk » 07 August 2013, 05:44

No, sorry, Kevin Bacon wasn't in Footloose...
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Verbal_HM » 10 August 2013, 00:42

So from this 'official' thread I can gain this much knowledge...

Officially:
  • *I've 'discovered' Jim & Bob will be in the game in a fancy video, probably the intro movie you get at the start of the game, word for word...
Unofficially:
  • 'Cyanide' is run by a bunch of mutes...
    *'Cyanide' don't really understand the meaning of the word cummunity?
    *'Cyanide' is a French company yet there is even less info on the French boards than there is on the English ones...
    *I should really bother to sign up to the 'Cyanides' page on Twitter, Youtube, FacePage, SpaceBook, erm, name another social media site, BUT I'm guessing there isn't much posted there either....
    *Voodoo Mike has far too much time on his hands...
    *Voodoo seems to think that 'Cyanide' are lame, and that they mostly abuse their customer base? Really can't see why he would think such madness, *'Cyanide' love us to bits, they feed us faithful fans info all the time...
    *Voodoo thinks that 'Cyanide' will feed us a Real Time mode because they aren't telling us fans that they are doing, Voodoo is probably right TBH, *Cyanide seem to have such an epic misunderstanding of what they should eb doing as acompany that Voodoo might actually be right about what he's saying, I just hope that Granny Wendy is actually holding the law hammer over them, seeingas that is what got us this turn based game in the first place, I'm hoping the threat of being sued a2nd time by Granny is actually keeping them in check, hopefully...
    *Dode really enjoys annoying Voodoo, but he seems pretty easy to wind up, for somebody that actually seems to have half a brain, which is a shame...
My Opinions:
  • *I just want this game with less bugs...
    *AND! a Full Star PLayer list
    *AND! all the (un)official teams including Slann...
    *I am actually willing to pay for said stars as DLC, I know Granny Wendy and how she thinks, I'm happy to pay for most of the content as DLC for extra money....
    *JUST AS LONG AS YOU MAKE THE GAME WORK WITHOUT ALL THESE EPIC GAME BREAKING BUGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( I live in hope, but then again I've experienced 'Cyanides' idea of testing 1st hand in another life... )
    *I hope whatever date 'Cyanide/Focus' are expecting to release this game, they add a month, or 2, or 6, just get it right guys, please...
    *I love BB, it's my favorite game EVER!
    *Haveing a 'Cyanide' shaped dikk constantly screwing me is uncomfortable, to say the least...
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Gallows Bait » 10 August 2013, 12:09

Or perhaps you'd like to tell them what they need to do with Pro Cycling Manager too? I don't doubt that giving guns and engines to the likes of Froome and Wiggins would make for more "mass market" appeal to the game (an increase the odds of a third British TDF victory!), but would it then be Pro Cycling Manager?
PCM is a very different animal. It has a loyal following and is a genuine niche game... they're not looking to expand on the license, and the people who buy it are happy with the product. BB does not have a loyal following... it has a community that mostly badmouths it and balks at buying a new copy every year at full price and would bail on it the second someone offered them a viable alternative.... and cyanide has expressed obvious intent to expand on the license in the form of DB and SC... and now, potentially BB2.
Actually, I'd suggest Blood Bowl is a perfect example of a niche market, its still alive after over 25 years and has a large and loyal community. Just because it is not a happy market and would not seek a better alternative does not stop it being a niche. We are a community that wants to play the best available version of Blood Bowl and there's 25 years of both GW and Cyanide history that proves even if we don't always like it, you can guarantee we will buy it and keep playing. Of course if a second licence was issued I'd be eager to see if there was a better product, but unless that happens, this is the one we have.

Expanding products such as DB and SC are perfect examples of where a company will attempt to compliment its core product to exploit that niche further. If it wasn't, they'd be selling Fantasy Ice Hockey or something, instead of BB Lite.
How quickly you forget Slann.
Oh? Did GW confirm that they forbid slann's inclusion in BB:CE? I was under the impression that the sum total of that concept was put forward by some chick who drew pictures for the game... a cyanide employee. See also: the Chaos Dwarf thing.
Since when did GW confirm anything? We know from discussion here that Slann were put forward. We also know that GWs licences give them control of the IP. We also know from our BB/WH history that Slann no longer fit the current IP. Sometimes 2+2 really does =4 and you should accept that.
Not including CRP mode sounds crazy. There is no reason to turn down easy money.
How long, and how steep a discount, did it take to get you to buy CE? If all they do is drag BB1 and stick it directly into the new product then I can agree... though what'd be the point of buying it if you already have the current product? Past that, how is having CRP in the new product a big motivation to buy it for owners of the existing product, unless you assume they've somehow made a perfect awesome version in a fraction of the time they spent on the one we've already got? Maybe it also comes with a ferrari and a handjob from a supermodel?
So why aren't we all still playing DE edition? Evidence proves the market will buy the updated product. Just like the tabletop community bought 3 versions of the boxed game (and how many more versions of the rules?), and 7 editions of Warhammer 40k. Arguing against GW's entire business model now? People will buy it, even without a major discount. The discount for Chaos Edition was nice and all, but I'd have bought it all the same and I doubt I'm alone.

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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby VoodooMike » 10 August 2013, 13:58

Actually, I'd suggest Blood Bowl is a perfect example of a niche market, its still alive after over 25 years and has a large and loyal community. Just because it is not a happy market and would not seek a better alternative does not stop it being a niche.
You're looking at it from the standpoint of a guy who likes to play the game, and when people do that they're always confused by the actions of the producers. From a producer standpoint, BB is a giant waste of time beyond brand recognition: GW didn't manage to use it to sell minis like they wanted, and progressively reduced their support for the game. Cyanide saw such an amazing return on their investment of effort that they reduced the people and resources dedicated to the game quickly, until it was one or two guys... and now zero.

So sure, its absolutely possible they let all the folks who were involved in this project go... and then decided to give it to a totally new group of people who will have to start from scratch, familiarize themselves with the board game rules, and re-solve all the same problems the first group had dealt with.... and that this second group, from the same company, is going to produce something better than the very first version of the first product given the same mandate. I will say that taking a step back and looking at that concept objectively, not through the clouded glass of wishful thinking, makes it sound pretty silly, but hey... who knows!
Expanding products such as DB and SC are perfect examples of where a company will attempt to compliment its core product to exploit that niche further. If it wasn't, they'd be selling Fantasy Ice Hockey or something, instead of BB Lite.
DB used the same engine and models as the existing BB product, and SC is a totally different game. I agree they'll exploit the niche if by niche we're talking about the BB IP/Brand/Fluff, but SC alone demonstrates that they don't feel the need to keep the games as copies of the board game.
Since when did GW confirm anything? We know from discussion here that Slann were put forward. We also know that GWs licences give them control of the IP. We also know from our BB/WH history that Slann no longer fit the current IP. Sometimes 2+2 really does =4 and you should accept that.
That's the same math that told us that the "Daemons of Chaos" was actually Chaos Pact, right? We've had word from GW on at least one occasion, and it was when Cyanide employees claimed the reason that Chaos Dwarf wasn't going to be in LE was that GW disallowed it... and the GW rep said "no we didn't". So, the one time GW spoke, it was to say that Cyanide was trying to pass the buck for their own failings onto GW. The idea that GW blocked Slann came from a single, off-handed posting by one of the art people at Cyanide who left the company a month or so later. You'll note that there was no reason given for the lack of Pact, or the fact that they ADDED THEIR OWN ROSTER.

Folks keep trying to turn everything into a GW conspiracy... and while I understand that the BB community in general holds a grudge against GW (I have a few of my own) that doesn't make them responsible for every evil in the world.
So why aren't we all still playing DE edition? Evidence proves the market will buy the updated product. Just like the tabletop community bought 3 versions of the boxed game (and how many more versions of the rules?), and 7 editions of Warhammer 40k. Arguing against GW's entire business model now? People will buy it, even without a major discount. The discount for Chaos Edition was nice and all, but I'd have bought it all the same and I doubt I'm alone.
DE only came out because Cyanide/Focus failed to fight off people's use of the Dark Elf team's assets that people had gotten a hold of from their accidental inclusion in one of the versions. We knew there were other teams that had already been made.... so LE was already in the works. You'll note, however, that by the time LE was released, the number of people working on the product was at about 10% or less than it was when the first one came out. It suggests that the majority of LE was done before everyone was pulled off the project, leaving behind only a skeleton crew. CE's additions were pretty slim pickings compared to LE's updates, which makes sense given how small the team was by then. They didn't even try to get people to pay full price, giving a massive (66%) discount to existing owners and letting LE play with CE online.

You can read that as "They made three versions which proves they were committed to the game!" but I read that as "LE was as much of the intended product as they got made... Orig/DE was an early release to gauge the income potential, and possibly because they were behind schedule with the intended product... and CE was a final cash grab before they wound the product up and closed down the team. I suspect that LE wasn't even a "finished" product... but that they decided the sales of the original product didn't match expectation, so they pulled the majority of their people off and said "just polish it a bit and post it", hence the missing teams.

I don't think everyone would have bought CE at full price as you say you would have. I certainly wouldn't have. I would have bought LE at full price, though to be fair at the time I'd have bought it at twice the price because I needed it as part of a vendetta ;) It was a worthy upgrade to DE regardless due to having to many new teams... there's nothing like that left to do with the game.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Gallows Bait » 10 August 2013, 20:53

You're looking at it from the standpoint of a guy who likes to play the game, and when people do that they're always confused by the actions of the producers. From a producer standpoint, BB is a giant waste of time beyond brand recognition: GW didn't manage to use it to sell minis like they wanted, and progressively reduced their support for the game. Cyanide saw such an amazing return on their investment of effort that they reduced the people and resources dedicated to the game quickly, until it was one or two guys... and now zero.
Not at all, I'm looking at it from the point of view of a company that managed to sell 3 separate (albeit all half-assed) versions of the game and DB, that to me does not at all sound like a wasted effort, it must after all have provided a sufficient return for them to bother with LE even if it wasn't such a significant investment for them. As for GW, no, they didn't manage to use it to sell miniatures because they haven't bothered trying in the last 20 years.

After the 1993 3rd edition their support died stage by stage without doing anything more than putting out a bunch of shit models produced by trainee miniature makers under the cover of "Specialist Games" which was GWs way of saying "WFB and 40K are all we're interested in". We will never know whether they could have made more of it because they didn't try. Their 1990s business model was to support "Specialist" games for 18 months and "core" games for 5 years. In the 2000s this changed to exclusive support for the "core" games and nothing else at all. In recent years that has been expanded to allow partner companies to exploit the IP of the "Specialist" games. They're following sales volumes and margins, I respect that, but to say BB could not succeed when no one tried is not an accurate statement.

My experience of the BB tabletop community, other niche games such as Necromunda and BFG as well as the enormous success of the Space Hulk anniversary edition would indicate that if we had seen a supported product it would have been a healthy sideline for them. It wouldn't ever be a touch on 40k or whatnot, but a profitable niche for sure. I'm certain all the 3rd party miniature manufacturers see it as a sufficient niche market to be worthwhile, otherwise they wouldn't still be producing new models.

Then again, we're not talking about a company making BB instead of Halo, this is a small developer making a niche product, which was my point.

So sure, its absolutely possible they let all the folks who were involved in this project go... and then decided to give it to a totally new group of people who will have to start from scratch, familiarize themselves with the board game rules, and re-solve all the same problems the first group had dealt with.... and that this second group, from the same company, is going to produce something better than the very first version of the first product given the same mandate. I will say that taking a step back and looking at that concept objectively, not through the clouded glass of wishful thinking, makes it sound pretty silly, but hey... who knows!
They've already confirmed there's no one left from the original Blood Bowl, that's why they couldn't produce much in the way of client patches for the issues from the server migration in January and why it had to be done urgently because the last programmer left was leaving the company. BB2 is by definition being worked on by an entirely different team, at least in respect of programming, because they have admitted to not having anyone left that knew the BB code.

I'm certainly not suggesting they'll build something superior, and I'm not even suggesting they'll stick to a tabletop clone like BB1. I'm just saying that your argument that there's no market doesn't hold water. There is a market, whether they will choose to pursue it I cannot tell you, I don't have their sales numbers in front of me - I can tell you that 99% of all matches online are non-realtime, which would indicate that the interest in the BB IP is from the tabletop community and less from the sports sim community, but that's a problem for their marketting people. I hope they will support a tabletop mode, both for my own gaming interests, but also because I think if they try to make a real time sport simulation game they're on a hiding to nothing because there's little in their back catalogue to suggest they'll be any good at it, nor are Fantasy settings the big sellers in the sports sim market - its NFL, Premier League, MLB and other real life brands that sports fans buy.
DB used the same engine and models as the existing BB product, and SC is a totally different game. I agree they'll exploit the niche if by niche we're talking about the BB IP/Brand/Fluff, but SC alone demonstrates that they don't feel the need to keep the games as copies of the board game.
Yes, I'm talking about the BB IP etc. As for SC, sure, but they're also not selling that as BB2, just a BB extra. In the same way GW licenced FFG to make the Team Manager card game - if companies can spot a game worth making using the IP by all means they should. As I said, I'm not here claiming they're not making a Real time game, I'm just commenting that there's some good reasons to make a TT mode as well that you're choosing to dismiss as blinkered fanboiism.
That's the same math that told us that the "Daemons of Chaos" was actually Chaos Pact, right? We've had word from GW on at least one occasion, and it was when Cyanide employees claimed the reason that Chaos Dwarf wasn't going to be in LE was that GW disallowed it... and the GW rep said "no we didn't". So, the one time GW spoke, it was to say that Cyanide was trying to pass the buck for their own failings onto GW. The idea that GW blocked Slann came from a single, off-handed posting by one of the art people at Cyanide who left the company a month or so later. You'll note that there was no reason given for the lack of Pact, or the fact that they ADDED THEIR OWN ROSTER.

Folks keep trying to turn everything into a GW conspiracy... and while I understand that the BB community in general holds a grudge against GW (I have a few of my own) that doesn't make them responsible for every evil in the world.
And there's no reason to pin the conspiracy on Cyanide either, even if they have been guilty in the past. What are facts are that Slann don't fit GW IP and that GW have previously focused on rules for teams where miniatures exist (hence the LRB issues). This is merely an extension of those known facts to provide the most feasible answer to why Slann aren't and likely never will be in the game. No one can prove the answer definitively, and quite frankly I don't much care. I'm just saying sometimes the simplest answer is most likely correct, in this case - Slann doesn't exist like that anymore to GW so no amount of prodding or whining will get them to change their mind -in fact I'd go so far as to suggest that someone at Cyanide/Focus should have done more research before letting anyone even work on Slann design because it was always going to be a wasted effort.
DE only came out because Cyanide/Focus failed to fight off people's use of the Dark Elf team's assets that people had gotten a hold of from their accidental inclusion in one of the versions. We knew there were other teams that had already been made.... so LE was already in the works. You'll note, however, that by the time LE was released, the number of people working on the product was at about 10% or less than it was when the first one came out. It suggests that the majority of LE was done before everyone was pulled off the project, leaving behind only a skeleton crew. CE's additions were pretty slim pickings compared to LE's updates, which makes sense given how small the team was by then. They didn't even try to get people to pay full price, giving a massive (66%) discount to existing owners and letting LE play with CE online.

You can read that as "They made three versions which proves they were committed to the game!" but I read that as "LE was as much of the intended product as they got made... Orig/DE was an early release to gauge the income potential, and possibly because they were behind schedule with the intended product... and CE was a final cash grab before they wound the product up and closed down the team. I suspect that LE wasn't even a "finished" product... but that they decided the sales of the original product didn't match expectation, so they pulled the majority of their people off and said "just polish it a bit and post it", hence the missing teams.

I don't think everyone would have bought CE at full price as you say you would have. I certainly wouldn't have. I would have bought LE at full price, though to be fair at the time I'd have bought it at twice the price because I needed it as part of a vendetta ;) It was a worthy upgrade to DE regardless due to having to many new teams... there's nothing like that left to do with the game.
Interesting, to be fair, I've not seen the insides of DE, and DE was already out when I joined the party, though I was here before LE came out, so I've not seen the balance between pre- and post DE work that might have been done. If I'm brutally honest part of me suspects DE, LE and CE exist as stages of a complete project only in order to fulfil a contract obligation (allegedly to produce 3 BB titles), while we do know that DB was their first separate licence that didn't tie them in to the original GW deal and their publisher Focus.

However, that doesn't negate my point that there is a market, again I'm not claiming is the be all and end all, but since as I've already noted, I believ e this is a niche game with a niche market, then I still think its worth them pursuing. I'm not saying its EA Sports or anything, it likely never will be, but that doesn't mean its by definition a waste of time either.

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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby VoodooMike » 11 August 2013, 14:47

etc... etc... etc....
At this point we don't disagree substantially on many things, so we can dispense with some of the walls of text. My actual points are the following:

- If BB2 is a turn-based game, and it doesn't take a lot of work to re-implement CRP the I'm absolutely in favour of them doing so. I'm not opposed to that sort of thing and never have been!
- If BB2 is not close to CRP and it would take a lot of work to try to implement a CRP game, then I don't think they NEED to do so. They already have a product available that does the TT game, for people who want that.
- They've put a new team on this, and are dumping a lot of work into the media aspect (from the small bit they've said). I don't see them doing that if all they're looking to do is sell it to the same people again, at a steep discount, which is what it takes to sell the same people the same thing again.
- If they're not focusing on THIS group of customers, then it'd be silly to go the route of re-implementing the same game a second time and starting over. There aren't a lot of new people to pick up with the same thing.

As for the "who is at fault" thing... I am going with the simplest answer: the people who quite physically control what is implemented or not. I haven't seen any other company with a license for GW IP say "yeah we tried, but GW prevented us from doing it", and in the only case when GW spoke, it was to say that Cyanide was lying about them preventing something from being implemented. Parsimony clearly points at Cyanide just not taking responsibility for their decisions, and seeing GW as an easy scapegoat for everything since the community is already willing to believe GW eats babies.

It does matter which is true... because you and others are using "Well GW prevented them from...." as a foundation for your further reasoning, and unless the foundation is true, the rest of what is being said is total vapor.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Darkson » 13 August 2013, 14:50

Demo'd at German Games Day, but no more info than that.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby dode74 » 13 August 2013, 17:48

The pics I've seen posted of it on OCC suggest it was a demo of Chaos Edition with pamphlets for BB2. Pics are also on TFF now.
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