Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision TV!

The latest news and announcements for the Blood Bowl video games.
booncabal76
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby booncabal76 » 30 July 2013, 12:08

Variety is the spice of life

Those teams could be amazing.

Frankly, with all due respect, I say ignore that puritans. Embrace the future, embrace the medium and move BB forwards!

Or post a trailer that tells you nothing and then fall silent for 2 months...your choice.

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dode74
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby dode74 » 30 July 2013, 12:26

Totally agree with you there, Boony. Thing is, a lot of people want to play LRB6 BB. Certainly the vast majority of the coaches I've spoken to do. That's why I think anything outside LRB6 must be optional.
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Koadah
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Koadah » 30 July 2013, 12:31

The core game still needs to be there though.
Not sure I really agree. There's little or no reason for owners of the current product to buy an entirely new product that does exactly the same thing, and I imagine a lot of those owners would realize it when the product came out. That said, I suspect no few people who own the existing product will shell out for something new in the BB franchise that doesn't claim to be a faithful recreation of the board game. Maybe they'll stuff the existing product's engine into the new game to help satisfy the existing playerbase, but they'd be stupid to focus on us rather than the people who are NOT interested in the existing product.
FIFA & Madden seem to do OK. ;)

If it was going to be a different game it would make sense to give it a different name. e.g. Blood Bowl Team manager or Dungeon Bowl.

Blood Bowl 2 has got to be Blood Bowl. Bigger and better. New modes, better graphics, more features, teams, stadia, fixes etc. But still Blood Bowl.

They could chuck in team management mode, street bowl mode or whatever but it's still blood bowl.
Oooh! And new teams! Gotta have new teams. ;)
Don't "gotta", but if there's new stuff it has to be pushed into view, not squirreled away in some dark corner... at least if there's any expectation of that new stuff ever going someplace.
After Khorne Demons a couple of new teams would make sense.
@Dode: Do you have any knowledge of any new teams in development? ;)

If they are putting in new features they'd make sure people knew about them.
Maybe they'll even get the current rules right.
They're not "bugs" they're "houserules". It takes forever for glitches to get fixed - on both online versions of the game. People just cope with things not working the correct way.
Fixes would be a selling point to some people. On the other client they realised that some fixes required bit of a redesign. They figured that was worth doing to get it right. So yes a long time between fixes.
It seems to me that the remaining bugs are hidden away in events that occur very rarely. Not obvious things like loading a saved formation.

I'm not expecting cards but all the stars would be something.
they'd be stupid to focus on us rather than the people who are NOT interested in the existing product.
We're not the only people who bought this game. I'll bet a lot of their revenue came from people who only ever play single player realtime or blitz.
I'll bet a lot of people who didn't use it for more than 15-20 hours would still come back if you promise that it is bigger and better.


What would you do to bring in other people? Most people who would be interested in this kind of thing have already had the chance to buy LE or CE for £8 or less. If you are talking about something that isn't blood bowl then better call it something else.
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VoodooMike
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby VoodooMike » 30 July 2013, 14:42

That's not the same as "not maintaining the core game", though. There are many reasons which have been listed by multiple people in various threads already as to what improvements to this version people would pay for: stuff from the mundane but sensible (server-side rolls, improved league management, all the stars, cards etc) to the more wacky (optional house rules as opposed to imposed bugs). Make it play the current rules well and you could even go as far as attempting to integrate with already-existing TT organisations and co-opt the TT players more effectively: there's a ready-made playerbase right there.
Not a very big "ready-made playerbase" in the grand scheme of things, though. Making the product appeal specifically to the existing playerbase won't guarantee sales to it after several years of the previous product, but having it focus on appealing to them would certainly make it into a product that had less mass appeal than it could.

Additionally... why would anybody assume (like they have every single time a new BB edition came out) that the upcoming release will solve all the problems that existing in the last one? Why would anyone assume that the same people who spent the last few years giving us the product we have, can make something that is the same but better in a shorter time period?
Frankly, with all due respect, I say ignore that puritans. Embrace the future, embrace the medium and move BB forwards!
I don't really see how they'd be any further ahead by NOT doing that, frankly. It's not like this community is actively supportive of anyone or anything anyway. Add to this the fact that, contrary to many bold claims, pretty much everyone will buy whatever they put out with the BB label on it (I notice that most of the most vocal hold-outs on CE eventually admit to having bought the update) and Cyanide would be idiots to focus on this community rather than the wide gaming audience. That said... they do have a track record for being idiots, so it's anyone's guess what we'll end up with.
Thing is, a lot of people want to play LRB6 BB. Certainly the vast majority of the coaches I've spoken to do. That's why I think anything outside LRB6 must be optional.
You mean, like your Khorne roster was in CE?
If they are putting in new features they'd make sure people knew about them.
Seriously? When have they ever given early details about anything?
On the other client they realised that some fixes required bit of a redesign. They figured that was worth doing to get it right. So yes a long time between fixes.
Hah, suuuure. Lets apply the same excuse to why it has taken Cyanide so long to fix problems. Fact of the matter is that both are slow to fix anything for the same reason: it's one guy working on the code, and most of the time he just can't be assed to work on it, so it waits for when he's just drunk enough to bother.
What would you do to bring in other people? Most people who would be interested in this kind of thing have already had the chance to buy LE or CE for £8 or less. If you are talking about something that isn't blood bowl then better call it something else.
I'd identify what makes BB, the straight-up game, have low appeal to the general gaming community and aim to change it to better suit a wider audience. As for having to call it something different... that's your personal preference, but it's not necessary. Just ask WoTC about "Dungeons and Dragons" which was a completely different game in 3rd edition... then again in 4th edition.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby dode74 » 30 July 2013, 14:56

Making the product appeal specifically to the existing playerbase won't guarantee sales to it after several years of the previous product, but having it focus on appealing to them would certainly make it into a product that had less mass appeal than it could.
Then calling it Blood Bowl would be, at best, dishonest.
You mean, like your Khorne roster was in CE?
Yep. Nobody has to accept it into their league. And even then you saw the fuss that caused. You imagine for a second that anything introduced in a similar manner will be fluffy and balanced (to a degree of balance not outside what we have now)?

@ Koadah - I know of no new teams in development.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby VoodooMike » 30 July 2013, 16:23

Then calling it Blood Bowl would be, at best, dishonest.
Get over yourself. Basically no game in HISTORY that has numbered sequels, as most games that have sequels do, didn't have significantly different play mechanics than its predecessors. There's nothing dishonest about that - it is expected by any other community. You're just trying to put your own personal desires down as "the only rational and honest thing" and it just ain't so. If anything, the fact that they're calling it BB2 gives the expectation that it should be something significantly different than any of the BB products that came before it, which were BB: edition name each time.

In modern computer gaming, making a sequel something entirely different on every level will make some folks complain, but not nearly as loudly as making it effectively the same as the previous product, which causes people to ask why it's not just cheap DLC instead, if not a free patch.
Yep. Nobody has to accept it into their league.
So if I play single player I can toggle off Khorne? What about if I play in anything that isn't a private league online? Your idea of "optional" is "we all get together and just agree not to use this one particular aspect of the game" is it? Rock on, dode - it turns out Cyanide already solved the CPoMB "issue" by making it dode-optional.
And even then you saw the fuss that caused. You imagine for a second that anything introduced in a similar manner will be fluffy and balanced (to a degree of balance not outside what we have now)?
Oh no.. not a fuss... not a fuss in the bitching and complaining community of tabletoppers! Seriously, I'm not sure my weak constitution could handle another fuss. I barely made it through the last one with my bonnet and slippers unsullied! Of course, if they do manage to change the game in such a way as to make it more appealing to the general gaming community, this community will shift to reflect that, and the pissing and moaning of the previous, small community, will be subsumed by the newer, larger community of people who like what is being offered, I would think... or at least the larger community of people who have different gripes unrelated to how it doesn't match their TT experience.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Koadah » 30 July 2013, 16:36

Additionally... why would anybody assume (like they have every single time a new BB edition came out) that the upcoming release will solve all the problems that existing in the last one? Why would anyone assume that the same people who spent the last few years giving us the product we have, can make something that is the same but better in a shorter time period?
I doubt that they are starting from scratch. I doubt that they are going put a load of effort into handhelds & xbox.

I don't expect all problems to be fixed but I'd expect to be able to load a setup formation without problems.
Frankly, with all due respect, I say ignore that puritans. Embrace the future, embrace the medium and move BB forwards!
I don't really see how they'd be any further ahead by NOT doing that, frankly. It's not like this community is actively supportive of anyone or anything anyway. Add to this the fact that, contrary to many bold claims, pretty much everyone will buy whatever they put out with the BB label on it (I notice that most of the most vocal hold-outs on CE eventually admit to having bought the update) and Cyanide would be idiots to focus on this community rather than the wide gaming audience. That said... they do have a track record for being idiots, so it's anyone's guess what we'll end up with.
I don't know how many puritans we have. I'm sure that most purists wouldn't care what else you put in as long as there is a working CRP.

I don't know how many ran out to buy Dungeon Bowl. I'm guessing not many and that was pretty cheap.
Thing is, a lot of people want to play LRB6 BB. Certainly the vast majority of the coaches I've spoken to do. That's why I think anything outside LRB6 must be optional.
You mean, like your Khorne roster was in CE?
Rules yes. Rosters? hmm...
If they are putting in new features they'd make sure people knew about them.
Seriously? When have they ever given early details about anything?
Well, I didn't say early.
On the other client they realised that some fixes required bit of a redesign. They figured that was worth doing to get it right. So yes a long time between fixes.
Hah, suuuure. Lets apply the same excuse to why it has taken Cyanide so long to fix problems. Fact of the matter is that both are slow to fix anything for the same reason: it's one guy working on the code, and most of the time he just can't be assed to work on it, so it waits for when he's just drunk enough to bother.
I wouldn't call it an excuse. If Cyanide haven't done that we'll have a lot of the same bugs and little hope of a fix before BB3.
What would you do to bring in other people? Most people who would be interested in this kind of thing have already had the chance to buy LE or CE for £8 or less. If you are talking about something that isn't blood bowl then better call it something else.
I'd identify what makes BB, the straight-up game, have low appeal to the general gaming community and aim to change it to better suit a wider audience. As for having to call it something different... that's your personal preference, but it's not necessary. Just ask WoTC about "Dungeons and Dragons" which was a completely different game in 3rd edition... then again in 4th edition.
Turn based, fat rule book, requires a fair amount of know how and thinking.

Basically it needs a kick ass real time mode.

You could add a simplified kiddie turn based mode too.

It needs a good tutorial. An idiot mode that even a complete know nothing noob could beat three times out of five.

Expanded blitz mode.

The D&D example is more like the 2nd Ed. to 3rd Ed. change.

I was OK with that but compromise too much and you'll have a game that I wouldn't want to play so wouldn't care how many users you have.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby VoodooMike » 30 July 2013, 16:57

I doubt that they are starting from scratch. I doubt that they are going put a load of effort into handhelds & xbox.
I think it's very hard to say on this. If we take a step back from who we are, and what we think of Cyanide/Focus, I don't think its at all difficult to say that there would be huge interest in a modern sports game set in a fantasy world.. there were a slew of them in the 80s for platforms like the C64, and they were pretty popular. Sports games of all sorts are a big deal. Fantasy games of all sorts are a big deal. Computer gaming is a big deal. Cyanide has an IP license that has insane potential, but not in using it to recreate the board game. The insane potential is in NOT making the board game, but using the fluff foundation laid out by GW across decades, to make something modern.

Now... whether they have it in them to do it or not is a totally different issue. If we return to being who we are, and thinking what we do about Cyanide/Focus... the rose-coloured goggles tend to just explode and embed shards of glass in our eyes.

I've actually purchased and played non-BB titles from Cyanide, such as their Game of Thrones RPG.. and read, if not participated, in the forums related to them. The general feeling about Cyanide products are either "this is bad and buggy" or "this is good, but buggy". If there's one constant across their products, its not that they're bad... just that they're buggy and the bugs don't ever get fixed.

I actually enjoyed playing the GoT RPG. My private shame.
I don't know how many puritans we have. I'm sure that most purists wouldn't care what else you put in as long as there is a working CRP.
There's already working CRP in the current product, its just buggy. They could, no doubt, just include the current product as a sub-mode of the new product... or just give everyone who buys BB2 a free copy of BB:CE.
I don't know how many ran out to buy Dungeon Bowl. I'm guessing not many and that was pretty cheap.
DB had no single player mode, and it required you buy teams individually. It wasn't my being a purist that kept me away from it.
Well, I didn't say early.
Its early yet. I'm just saying that your statement that if there's new stuff, they'd be hyping it is not really applicable to this situation yet - they've given NO INFORMATION on the product yet. In the past they also gave no information until they felt they had to, and even then it was ambiguous enough to have people debating what it actually meant. The silence has no meaning.
Turn based, fat rule book, requires a fair amount of know how and thinking.

Basically it needs a kick ass real time mode.

You could add a simplified kiddie turn based mode too.

It needs a good tutorial. An idiot mode that even a complete know nothing noob could beat three times out of five.

Expanded blitz mode.
I agree with everything in this quote, really. What we probably disagree on is that the basic CRP game shouldn't be the default... the realtime and idiot modes should be, with the more nichey CRP game being the secondary, optional stuff, if it is present at all (we already have it in the current product).
The D&D example is more like the 2nd Ed. to 3rd Ed. change.
I was saying that both 3rd ed and 4th ed represented total rewrites of the game from their previous versions.
I was OK with that but compromise too much and you'll have a game that I wouldn't want to play so wouldn't care how many users you have.
If you can stop looking at it as them trying to change the game you love, and instead making a new game set in the same universe, promoting the fluff you know and love, I bet you can get over it. You already have options for playing the straight TT game online, I don't see why you'd want yet another... but I bet you'd go see "Blood Bowl" if they made it into a movie, despite the fact that its unlikely it'd be 2 hours of watching people play the board game.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby Koadah » 30 July 2013, 18:13

I actually enjoyed playing the GoT RPG. My private shame.
Interesting. But even your word isn't enough to induce me to buy it. The strategy game looks completely dead. That should have had loads of potential.
Turn based, fat rule book, requires a fair amount of know how and thinking.

Basically it needs a kick ass real time mode.

You could add a simplified kiddie turn based mode too.

It needs a good tutorial. An idiot mode that even a complete know nothing noob could beat three times out of five.

Expanded blitz mode.
I agree with everything in this quote, really. What we probably disagree on is that the basic CRP game shouldn't be the default... the realtime and idiot modes should be, with the more nichey CRP game being the secondary, optional stuff, if it is present at all (we already have it in the current product).
I'm not bothered about which mode is the default or promoted most heavily as long as the CRP mode is there. I wouldn't buy it with out that.
I was OK with that but compromise too much and you'll have a game that I wouldn't want to play so wouldn't care how many users you have.
If you can stop looking at it as them trying to change the game you love, and instead making a new game set in the same universe, promoting the fluff you know and love, I bet you can get over it. You already have options for playing the straight TT game online, I don't see why you'd want yet another... but I bet you'd go see "Blood Bowl" if they made it into a movie, despite the fact that its unlikely it'd be 2 hours of watching people play the board game.
I admit that I have no sympathy for those who insist we should never have left LRB4 or 2nd Ed. I'm pretty happy with CRP+ so far.
If you want another version sure have one. But there is no reason to take out 'classic'. Just as I don't see why people want to take out real time.
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Re: Blood Bowl 2: Discover Jim & Bob on live on CabalVision

Postby dode74 » 30 July 2013, 18:57

Get over yourself. Basically no game in HISTORY that has numbered sequels, as most games that have sequels do, didn't have significantly different play mechanics than its predecessors.
I suspect the makers of the FM series, and probably the Madden series as well as FIFA and WES, would disagree. Yes, there were elements which were different, but they were largely the same game. The big differences were in the player stats and who they played for.
In modern computer gaming, making a sequel something entirely different on every level will make some folks complain, but not nearly as loudly as making it effectively the same as the previous product, which causes people to ask why it's not just cheap DLC instead, if not a free patch.
You seem to be forgetting that this is a port of a board game.
So if I play single player I can toggle off Khorne? What about if I play in anything that isn't a private league online? Your idea of "optional" is "we all get together and just agree not to use this one particular aspect of the game" is it? Rock on, dode - it turns out Cyanide already solved the CPoMB "issue" by making it dode-optional.
I don't disagree it shouldn't be done better, and I know how I'd do it. That doesn't change the fact that the leagues online - the ones who play LRB6 as far as possible - still have the option to play without Khorne.
Of course, if they do manage to change the game in such a way as to make it more appealing to the general gaming community, this community will shift to reflect that, and the pissing and moaning of the previous, small community, will be subsumed by the newer, larger community of people who like what is being offered, I would think... or at least the larger community of people who have different gripes unrelated to how it doesn't match their TT experience.
But then that community won't be these people. I, for one, will not buy a game which does not give me the opportunity to play LRB 6 BB. I'd rather play direct-IP or on FUMBBL, frankly.
Don't get me wrong: Chaos League was a fun game. But it wasn't Blood Bowl. All I'm suggesting is that the option is there to change the community in the way you suggest and keep the current members of the community happy: all you have to do is make things optional.
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