The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Your rosters, your strategies, advice, etc.
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dode74
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby dode74 » 08 October 2012, 21:40

@ Bucc -
I get that, I really do, but as you said already the "mass negatrait" thing has been done already, and the ONLY way to even think of balancing 0-6 ST4 players would be to gimp them in some manner, and Lizards already have the AG one while Vamps have the negatrait one (however you play it, negatrait players are basically about not throwing a 1 in order to be useful, and when they are then that's great; personally I don't see a massive difference between playstyles for that concept). Short of making them crumple the moment they are hit or be basically immobile there's not much else left.
What Horns/Juggs does is makes them the best one-on-one blitzer out of the box in the game: they get 2d and have a 1/36 chance of failure - there is no other player that gets that. For me, that ability to charge at and take out a foe with really good odds is also a part of what a bloodletter is. The thing with higher ST, though, is that it is a defensive as well as an offensive ability: it defines how easily you can be attacked as well as how well you can attack. Increase the ST and you increase the survivability (and the effectiveness of the team) enormously, but a transient increase when charging the opponent seems fitting for Khorne.

This kind of difference is actually one of the beauties of the BB/Warhammer world: it's open to interpretation from a fluff perspective due to being largely played out in the imagination. The detail of how you see these things and how I see them are different, and they will be different to someone else as well, which makes for disagreements over some matters of fluff and background but, ultimately, makes the game richer for each of us.

@ Skipbidder - I'll ask Freki, but there are clearly limitations at the moment. Thing is, EVERYONE will have a different opinion about what should have been done whether you are aware of the constraints or not. These threads rarely, if ever, reach any sort of satisfying conclusion or closure. The best I can reasonably do right now is explain (where possible) the reasons behind some of the design decisions. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with those decisions, since we all have different opinions on the relative value of fluff and balance, but those are the decisions we made.
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Bucc
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Bucc » 08 October 2012, 21:45

Skipbidder it is good points. I am just not sure would create any less frustration, probably only more. As now anything could possibly be off limits. Knowing the limits makes it easiere to question the decisions. Anyway there is an NDA, why I really don't know, as the team is public knowledge now. So for some years Dode will have knowledge shrouded in mystery

Bucc
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Bucc » 08 October 2012, 21:52

Well Dode you speak well for your cause. And no diagrams, it both miss them and hate them at the sane time. A nice change of pace at least. The amount of thought put into it makes me satisfied. It is not how i would have done it, far from, but I am sure i will enjoy the team. Thank you for the time put into creating them

Anglakhel
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Anglakhel » 08 October 2012, 22:51

What if (models were probably already pixelated before the roster was created, so no option on the designers part there);

- Berzerker, Quantity 0-16, 60k, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 8, Skills: Frenzy, Normal G, Double ASP
- Bloodletter, Quantity 0-4, 80k, MA 6, ST 4, AG 3, AV 7, Skills: Horns, Frenzy, Regeneration, Wild Animal, Normal GS, Double AP
- Bloodletter Herald, Quantity 0-2, 110k, MA 6, ST 4, AG 3, AV 7, Skills: Horns, Frenzy, Juggernaut, Regeneration, Normal GS, Double AP
- Bloodthirster, Quantity 0-1, 180k, MA 6, ST 5, AG 1, AV 9, Skills: Loner, Wild Animal, Claw, Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration, Normal S, Double GAP
- Reroll : 70k
- Apoth: No
- Wizard: No

Starplayers:
Morg and Grashnak

A low tiered team, frenzied bloodlusting craziness. Strong, all out blitzing, but wild animals and hard to control, low AV. It would be different, and without interteam inconsistencies. They would probably be down there with Vamps and low tier though. The team would suffer from the same weakness as it is in its actual incarnation, that a lot of TV is bound to blitzing skills, with only one blitz allowed a turn. The bloodletters would not be as alien from the warhammer origin as the case is now.
+1

Something along these lines is what I would have preferred to see with the team.

Universal Frenzy, several Wild Animals, Regen on the Daemons with no Apothecary, and a healthy dose of Strength.

It would be a unique roster with no direct comparison to any of the existing rosters. It would be internally consistent with the Daemons having a basic template upon which they are built. Most importantly, it would much more closely reflect and honor the inspiration of Khorne from other GW games while fitting into the game balance of Blood Bowl.

I think they'd be a challenging team and fall short of Tier 1, but they'd also be a scary team capable of living up to Khorne's reputation.

Dawn
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Dawn » 08 October 2012, 23:21

Not my first post in these forums, just on this account (my old account seems not active anymore, been some time).

Anyways, got my 2cents.

First, i find that no str 4 is really really disturbing. I really get the concept behind this team, but i wonder what was the idea of this team well-being at high TV. This needs clarification.

Thing is, i am really really happy about no mutation access. Im really really happy that it is themed team, and is not your another bash team. But there are two sides. Why would you name something like "a black-colored car" when it isnt black. Its blue actually. Dark blue at most. Pretty self-defeating. Khorne being easily (cannot stress this word enough) outbashed in melee fight is disturbing. I mean Khorne would like this team to fight more, right? You dont need claw access to bash well at high team value, or not necessarily, even at all. However, this team is supposed to be more bashy than human team, right? So how then it is possible, that there is no Str 4 guys or more guard access? Ok, Str 4 is not needed to bash i totally agree. How about Str skill access across the board then? Hm, some positionals being AV 7 and all str 3 roster, Str skill access almost no better than Human team, having in mind that some of your bloodletters will have to be ball carriers most likely.

You sure it is Khorne team? Blood letters and big guy fits nicely actually. What doesnt fit nicely is heralds and pit fighters. Either heralds had to be str4 or pit fighters got some nerf to other stats and got str access. That would how i would imagined Khorne theme.

- Pit Fighter, Quantity 0-16, 60k, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 7, Skills: Frenzy, Normal GS, Double AP

OR

- Bloodletter Herald, Quantity 0-2, 100k, MA 6, ST 4, AG 2, AV 7, Skills: Horns, Frenzy, Juggernaut, Regeneration, Normal GS, Double AP

With second option being more balanced and serving the team right.

TLDR; Anyways, from a design point of view, its really interesting team, which im looking forward to play.
However, from a Khorne point of view, its horrendous, cause its not Khorne. All Str3 team isnt Khorne any way you put it. Why even put a name Khorne on top of it. There were plenty of Warhammer fluff you could take that would fit the team more. More str OR (not and) Str skill access would make it so much more fluffy. Safe approach to development isnt always the best, but i guess the idea was to not be another Norse team with Daemon theme.

Dawn approves.
Khorne dissaproves.

Cajun
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Cajun » 09 October 2012, 02:40

http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/view ... 20&t=37146 57% find a probelm with this team wether it's fluff or the roster regardless of fluff. The other poll you mention on fumbble is merely asking if it should be included. Ofcourse it should be included , but it's still a weak team. I'm fine with the weak nature of the team, but it should feel consistant. I'm not gonna harp on anybody for the pitfighters, they are fine by me. Lack of mutation, meh but I can see it no complaints. Lack of strength 4, not the way I would have gone, but this seems like a balance descision. I have no idea how regen on 0-2 positional is gonna affect anything other than the feel of the team. AV7 on the letters is tragic, again av is huge on balance so I leave it un argued. What I want is Freki or somebody with Cyanide to come out and say we'll try this for a bit and if the community doesn't like it then regen is not too big a change of code to fix for the community.

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dode74
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby dode74 » 09 October 2012, 05:29

- Pit Fighter, Quantity 0-16, 60k, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 7, Skills: Frenzy, Normal GS, Double AP

OR

- Bloodletter Herald, Quantity 0-2, 100k, MA 6, ST 4, AG 2, AV 7, Skills: Horns, Frenzy, Juggernaut, Regeneration, Normal GS, Double AP
Option 1 would give ANOTHER all S-access team which, given the complaints about MB/PO, was felt was not needed. Do you want more bash? Option 2 was seriously considered, but the current option was preferred as being slightly weaker - bearing in mind that this was pre-playtesting, we'd prefer the team was underpowered to overpowered due to the effect on the metagame.
57% find a probelm with this team wether it's fluff or the roster regardless of fluff.
That's the same poll where 63% like the roster regardless of fluff. There are many ways of interpreting the results as the wording is ambiguous. You seem to be missing the fact that the team is meant to be weak, and while your theorybowl agrees that it is, experience may show otherwise. As I've said, it's better that it's too weak than too strong due to the effect on the metagame.
I am under no illusions that the team is perfect (you seem to think I am), and I too hope that there is room for tweaking once plenty of play data is gathered: I'll be getting LOTS from FOL over the coming months, which I will (as ever) share to whoever wants it. I'll also be wanting to chat with anyone getting plenty of games with the roster: there has already been feedback on TFF.
I have no idea how regen on 0-2 positional is gonna affect anything other than the feel of the team.
Skills aren't free. Skills cost. The Herald is 90k already. Regen would make that 100k. Is 6338 Frenzy/Juggs/Horns/Regen a 100k player? Look at the starting roster options and the effect that would have on them: starting roster options are important for tournament play, and this team was designed with an eye to the fact that this is a GW-approved product and that it may end up in NAF-sanctioned tournaments.
That said, it's an option for a tweak later on (should it be necessary and possible), as is the "option 2" dawn mentioned above, as are a few other possibilities.
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Monstrum
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Monstrum » 09 October 2012, 06:35

Dode, a ghoul is simply a demented cannibal and technically alive, they never had regen in WHF.
orcs being 80k and humans being 90k- you're comparing different teams. wights and blitz-ra are the same cost and skills, yet blitz-ra have 1 less agi. I actually think the orcs are undercosted and the blitzers should be 90k like the humans- block, str access and +av for 30k is a too cheap.
human catcher being str2 is one of the most annoying and argued/grumbled about facts in BB. there is a suggestion to make them agi4 which will make them a mirror of the skaven positionals. Again, you have a bloodletter with str3 and a greater daemon with str5 so I think you are hardly in a position to nitpick this.

Please fix the roster now before it's officially released.

0-2 str 4/agi2 heralds with regen at 110-120k will make a lot of fans happy and the roster will be just as underpowered. you know i'm right.
since it seems like you want to make letters all round players i would definately swap out the juggernaut with for more useful skill- block/dodge/sidestep maybe even claw to give them some hitting power and high TV potential
the bloodthirster needs to be reworked, big guys are just way too unreliable even for continuous MM let alone TT or league... maybe add pro or get rid of loner? up the cost obviously, but right now you have a Greater Daemon who is about on par with a minotaur. Forcing people to take him only because of general lack of claw on the team is a bit silly.

atleast fix the heralds
DISCLAIMER: General advice based on my experience is always correct.

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Darkson
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Darkson » 09 October 2012, 06:55

I think ghouls have regeneration in wfb now.

And the roster won't change now.
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dode74
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby dode74 » 09 October 2012, 08:03

Monstrum, I get you don't agree with some of the decisions. I understand that. But I've given the reasons whether you like them or not, and we have the roster we have. I even gave specific reasons for not making the Heralds any more powerful/expensive. Claiming the Bloodthirster is on a par with a Mino is a bit silly - he's VASTLY more reliable (4 times more reliable, in fact) in the blitz.

We have the team we have. Mass play will tell if tweaks are needed. Calling for changes now because you don't like the fluff is rash - all of the calls which don't turn the team into a negatrait team are for buffs, and I really think we need to wait and see on the effectiveness of the team. I have an inkling that mass frenzy, in the hands of a good coach, will suprise a lot of people.
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