The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Your rosters, your strategies, advice, etc.
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Tylthul
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Tylthul » 24 September 2012, 19:35

1180 Khorne Roster. Go forth and test (Hotseat or Direct IP under Chaos teams). Art is obviously placeholders, but stats are correct.

Download Khorne Flakes

Edit: Fixed Heralds (had regen on them instead of jugger) and an AG typo on pit fighters. If your pit fighters have 5 AG, you have the bad file ;) Sorry - I threw this together quickly. Redownload if you grabbed the incorrect file before I updated it.
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selfy_74
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby selfy_74 » 24 September 2012, 20:05

Right, so now the shackles are off, can some-one who play tested them let us know their findings?

harvestmouse
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby harvestmouse » 24 September 2012, 20:15


Well its very hard to go back and change the decisions made in 1993 when 3rd edition came out. Pro Elves is however an example of them attempting to do just that - if the BBRC had been able to, High Elves would have been removed in any case.

I do agree that Khorne aren't the best theme to be using, but equally you can't stick WFB criteria on a game that hasn't ever claimed to be WFB.

By the very act of setting mortal enemy races on a pitch to play a game for fun, you step out of Warhammer and into a separate world.
You haven't really covered my point at all (except with a 'this ain't warhammer, so anything goes' type argument, which I think is weak).

I don't really care whether they take the HE or the PE approach. What I do care is, they take one or the other.

If you're going to take beasties out of Warhammer then they need to mimic the physical capabilities of warhammer beasties. Nobody here is stupid, it's obvious what they've done.

Ok, we have human linos, let's call them............Pit Fighters!!! Now let's have a look at the Khorne demon list and see what we can take out of that. Right.............ST 5 Blood Letters aren't going to work, what would work? Hmmmmm ST 3 will be about right. What about the instability? Nah too hard, forget about that. And Warhammer frenzy? Nah, take too much time. Ok on to the Bloodthirster, Oh ST 7, well................

It smacks of lazy, unimaginative and unrealistic shoehorning. What's next? ST 4 Flings list? Ma 8 Dwarfs? Ag 2 Elves? A bit ridiculous? Well that's what they've done with this roster. They'd have been better not using Thirsters and Letters at all and inventing their own positionals. However that'd have taken some fluff making effort, where clearly roster balance was the only thing that had any time spent on it at all.

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Gallows Bait
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby Gallows Bait » 24 September 2012, 20:21

You haven't really covered my point at all (except with a 'this ain't warhammer, so anything goes' type argument, which I think is weak).

I don't really care whether they take the HE or the PE approach. What I do care is, they take one or the other.
They never have before
If you're going to take from beasties out of Warhammer then they need to mimic the physical capabilities of warhammer beasties. Nobody here is stupid, it's obvious what they've done.
Not really, Chaos in Blood Bowl is almost as old as Chaos in Warhammer. They have existed in the backgrounds of both for years, almost nothing in Blood Bowl mimics Warhammer strongly, it just wouldn't work.

An Orc lineman as strong as a human? No.
An Elf as slow as a human? No.
A dwarf as fast as an Elf? No.

Copying and pasting stats from a game based on entirely different mechanics and balance is a waste of time.
Ok, we have human linos, let's call them............Pit Fighters!!! Now let's have a look at the Khorne demon list and see what we can take out of that. Right.............ST 5 Blood Letters aren't going to work, what would work? Hmmmmm ST 3 will be about right. What about the instability? Nah too hard, forget about that. And Warhammer frenzy? Nah, take too much time. Ok on to the Bloodthirster, Oh ST 7, well................

It smacks of lazy, unimaginative and unrealistic shoehorning. What's next? ST 4 Flings list? Ma 8 Dwarfs? Ag 2 Elves? A bit ridiculous? Well that's what they've done with this roster. They'd have been better not using Thirsters and Letters at all and inventing their own positionals. However that'd have taken some fluff making effort, where clearly roster balance was the only thing that had any time spent on it at all.
See above, the roster isn't based on Warhammer stats. And it shouldn't be. Blood Bowl is an entirely different game and always has been.

harvestmouse
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby harvestmouse » 24 September 2012, 20:56

You haven't really covered my point at all (except with a 'this ain't warhammer, so anything goes' type argument, which I think is weak).

I don't really care whether they take the HE or the PE approach. What I do care is, they take one or the other.
They never have before
They never have what before? If you mean take one or other...........Elves were a clear example where they did! That's why I used them as an example.
Not really, Chaos in Blood Bowl is almost as old as Chaos in Warhammer. They have existed in the backgrounds of both for years, almost nothing in Blood Bowl mimics Warhammer strongly, it just wouldn't work.

An Orc lineman as strong as a human? No.
An Elf as slow as a human? No.
A dwarf as fast as an Elf? No.

Copying and pasting stats from a game based on entirely different mechanics and balance is a waste of time.
Where did you pull all that all that from? I think I know........

FYI, Khorne already had an official list in BloodBowl, for 4th edition and guess what.........with Warhammeresque converted stats. It was awful, but it was representative of the figures you put on the board. So what are we looking at here, if we put it altogether?

Bloodletters, from the dawn of time.......As strong as a Black Orc (Errr no, not anymore, over the last 10 years, they've got pretty weak), As tough as a .....(again no, they've changed......) Ok Bloodthirsters, who suffer from instability (well.........) As strong as (no, you don't want to go there).

It's just plain stupid.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your Orc/Elf/Human comparisions.

I understand they're different games, I get that. I don't really have a strong opinion on how closely they follow Warhammer World. I also understand that it's an alternative universe, giving them some creativity licence. Creative licence would have been giving them ST 4, but that.......just wouldn't be balanced. What the hell would have happened if these guys made some of the original rosters? Can't balance AG 4 elves, make them AG 3. Dwarfs to slow at MA4, make them a little less tough, and give them MA6. "Hey it's ok, we can do what we want, it's an alternative universe!"

(I'm repeating myself again) for the sake of conformity and realism you can't take a creature from Warhammer and change it physically to something it simply isn't. As an example, A BloodLetter is Stronger than a Black Orc in Warhammer, but weaker than a Black Orc in Blood Bowl. What you have is an 8ft monster that hits like a hobgoblin. It just doesn't work.

Obviously you can't have exactly the same stats from a Warhammer creature, however the stats give you a good idea of it's physical capabilities, and they should be replicated to a degree. No thought whatsoever went into 'this is what this creature is, these are the stats and skills it should have' Instead they've got a basic lino, and thought, what stats should the positionals have to fit the linos. There was no consideration what so ever as to what this Blood Bowl creature should be like (making your 'this is a BB creature not a Warhammer creature' argument even more moot).

Bottom line is: A Dwarf is a Dwarf. So a Bloodletter should be a Bloodletter, no matter what damn universe you put him in.

It's unrealistic, it's unprofessional, it looks terrible (especially if this team gets converted to the board) and it shouldn't be done. Shoehorning fluff is the worst crime in roster creation, in my opinion.

I'm extremely disappointed, I wanted to love this roster.

selfy_74
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby selfy_74 » 24 September 2012, 21:00

I like the fact that it's almost like a norse roster in reverse.

Lets say you have 4 blood letters and 7 pit-fighters on the pitch. With Norse all your strength access guys have frenzy, so it can sometimes be hard to keep your guards exactly where you want them. But, with the Khorne you could have 4 guard, standfirm pillars which the other frenzy guys can work around. Plus, you have some other chaps to lay on the big hits.

I'm looking forward to trying it out and I really wasn't before. :D

harvestmouse
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby harvestmouse » 24 September 2012, 21:19

I like the fact that it's almost like a norse roster in reverse.

Lets say you have 4 blood letters and 7 pit-fighters on the pitch. With Norse all your strength access guys have frenzy, so it can sometimes be hard to keep your guards exactly where you want them. But, with the Khorne you could have 4 guard, standfirm pillars which the other frenzy guys can work around. Plus, you have some other chaps to lay on the big hits.

I'm looking forward to trying it out and I really wasn't before. :D
Your guard standfirm pillars are AV7.... I think I'd mix and match with the agility skills. Agreed it looks a fun roster, but extremely tough. I don't think many coaches will be able to handle this roster very competitively.

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dode74
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby dode74 » 24 September 2012, 21:21

To be fair, once it was decided that it would be Khorne then this was a no-win situation. Either you stay "true" to the fluff and build demons as per WFB, or you add a team which wouldn't be another total bash & cas machine (which I believe is one of the biggest complaints about the game). Go with the former and the team will not be good for the game as it will have to be very powerful; go for the latter and it's not "true" to the fluff (especially for purists). Given that the decision to go with Khorne was made first, I think the latter is the lesser evil. Fluff should, imo, always be secondary to gameplay, and it is almost always possible to explain away these matters in a suitable fluffy manner.
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selfy_74
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby selfy_74 » 24 September 2012, 21:24

I like the fact that it's almost like a norse roster in reverse.

Lets say you have 4 blood letters and 7 pit-fighters on the pitch. With Norse all your strength access guys have frenzy, so it can sometimes be hard to keep your guards exactly where you want them. But, with the Khorne you could have 4 guard, standfirm pillars which the other frenzy guys can work around. Plus, you have some other chaps to lay on the big hits.

I'm looking forward to trying it out and I really wasn't before. :D
Your guard standfirm pillars are AV7.... I think I'd mix and match with the agility skills. Agreed it looks a fun roster, but extremely tough. I don't think many coaches will be able to handle this roster very competitively.
Oh, I agree with you on that. But, having said that I'm not very competitive and I'm not scared of AV7. :lol:

harvestmouse
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Re: The Daemons of Khorne: stats

Postby harvestmouse » 24 September 2012, 21:42

To be fair, once it was decided that it would be Khorne then this was a no-win situation. Either you stay "true" to the fluff and build demons as per WFB, or you add a team which wouldn't be another total bash & cas machine (which I believe is one of the biggest complaints about the game). Go with the former and the team will not be good for the game as it will have to be very powerful; go for the latter and it's not "true" to the fluff (especially for purists). Given that the decision to go with Khorne was made first, I think the latter is the lesser evil. Fluff should, imo, always be secondary to gameplay, and it is almost always possible to explain away these matters in a suitable fluffy manner.
Well the simple answer there is, leave the Warhammer races alone, and create your own thing. This then doesn't conflict with what already exists and the Khorne roster that did exist and makes the whole thing much easier to swallow.

As it is, it looks like they couldn't be bothered to put the time into that, nor authentic recreation.

I do agree though, Khorne is an extremely hard roster to undertake, make balanced and keep everyone happy.

Unlike you, I feel ignoring instability is a wasted opportunity. Especially for demons. Now if any other demons are added, you can't really add instability later. I think such a major negtrait, would have allowed for more powerful positionals (still keeping away from the mutations, which was a surprising but good call).

Let's say OFAB renamed, no thrall, out for the game not just the drive (or some sort of roll), no turn over, would have been pretty easy to code.


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