Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

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hermanJnr.
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Joined: 18 August 2011, 09:40

Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby hermanJnr. » 10 July 2014, 16:05

I don't want to start a "Claw is OP111!!1" style thread, not only are balance threads dumb but they're also completely irrelevant since it won't change.

But after a long holiday from BB I've started playing again and return to find the same tedious prevalence of CD in matchmaking.

Not that I mind the common place nature of the team, or it's ethos. Evil Dwarves with mutie access, what isn't there to like? I like the AV 7 hobs. I like the Bull Centaurs. It's a good mix and a fun-sounding team.

My issue is that I like them too much. Whenever I play the team I feel like the Centaurs in particular are Wardancers on 'roids, two of them are pretty much a single-handed defence, especially with Break Tackle. I feel like I'm playing Easy Mode.

Right now I'm playing against a min-maxed CD team with Humans, and I can't do anything except watch the mass of AV9 Claw kill me while the Bull Centaurs can actually out-run me. The other guy's tactic is "punch things, pile on every time (even KOs), repeat." That's all he's doing. I've kept injuries equal with fouling his crazy Level 7 killers and minimising his blocking opportunities, but had 3 send-offs so I'm down guys anyway.

And it's boring. His defence is just to keep his single Bull Centaur back, that's it. I can't dodge because of all the Tackle.

The BC has 4 AG, MA 6 (essentially 9 thanks to Sprint+Sure Feet), 4 STR, Block, AV 9, MB...one monster player I can't do anything at all to stop. Makes Vampires look like pussies. I knocked it over twice when he went for a completely unsupported TD, but he got it anyway with TZ pickups and dodges.

And every CD team you meet seems to have some crazy BC like this, or a full line of MB/Claw/Frenzy killers (this one does, TV 1500). It's because MM lets them just recycle until you get a crazy BS team you'd never expect in a league.

So...what was the logic, in particular, behind BCs? And how the hell do you counter them when they're developed like that? It's...a point of contention, for me :P
Formerly on the boards as "NinjaGammaMan".

BloodSkull
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Joined: 17 May 2012, 19:05

Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby BloodSkull » 11 July 2014, 09:50

Code: Select all

Normal: Guard, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Pro / Piling On / Dauntless / Grab / Frenzy Doubles: Claw Stat Increase: +ST +MV
This is pretty standard for a CD Blocker. They are so cookie cutter that seeing anything different is extremely uncommon. You can always garuntee to see builds like this in any league.

The logic behind having a +2 AG BC is that it gives you a fast, less fragile, and more reliable ball handler. This frees up your up hobgoblins to be glass cannon fodder with dirty player to take out whomever CMBPO has not.

The problem with dedicating countering BCs is it may leave you open to other teams. Side rant Well I have a problem with the Human Catcher I personally do not like the 8/2/3/7 Stating.... I would like to see 8/3/3/7 D,C for 100k/90k or 8/2/4/7 D,C for 80k/70k..... But tats not whats being asked for.

Basically you need to work your catcher to be back field safety or try to hybrid the catcher for multi use.

Code: Select all

Normal: Wrestle/Block, Shadowing, Side Step, Diving Tackle/Tackle Doubles: Guard Stat Increase: MV,ST, AG. I would prefer +MV.
Why MV? It makes it harder for the BC to break out of shadowing and makes it impossible to out run you without blocking your way. Once you get the ball away from the BC it will give enough movement to almost get out of your own end. With Shadowing & DT your opponent may need to use his blitz to hit you away and keep moving down the field. Wrestle will strip him of the ball on a both down, Side Step on a push will keep you locked in to use Shadowing... even if you get knocked down you can possibly move him to a location that will slow his movement. Diving Tackle will make it slightly more difficult to dodge out. Instead of needing to rolling a 2 (2 + 1 for dodge) to move to an empty space they will need to roll a 4 (4+ 1 dodge - 2 DT). Save the DT when the BC blows a dodge roll and hope you can smack him down on his team reroll. If you do not pick Shadowing then us the DT when you can so the opponent can burn through his TR. If BCs start coming with Dodge; Tackle would be the best option besides Diving Tackle.

I believe shadowing is a really underrated ability, but to be honest it is really only good against players the user can out pace or match in speed. A BC will need to roll 11+ to break a 9 MV catcher..... 12 with a 10 MV catcher, but that would be pushing in it. Another bonus of shadowing is that you can move with the BC while through a screen of DC Blockers because you do not need to make dodge rolls to follow.

Basically the 2 Catchers May lock down one BC, but if they have 2 BCs on the pitch with same stats it becomes a little more difficult as they can throw the ball as a backup option.

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MattDakka
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Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby MattDakka » 11 July 2014, 12:08

A Shadowing Catcher will be simply pombed by a CD Blocker.
Actually the minmaxed teams like this: http://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=771665
without Bull Centaurs are a bigger issue.
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BloodSkull
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Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby BloodSkull » 11 July 2014, 13:11

A Shadowing Catcher will be simply pombed by a CD Blocker.
Actually the minmaxed teams like this: http://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=771665
without Bull Centaurs are a bigger issue.

Nice team. Humans being a Jack of all Trait team needs a lot of doubles to get a decent footing to Bash with Guard. Block and Fend or wrestling is the only way to stomp out PO, but unfortunately it's not an optimal build and can be counter juggernaut.

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MattDakka
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Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby MattDakka » 11 July 2014, 14:38

The main problem of Fend is that you must have it on most of your players.
If you get it just on some then the pomber will simply target those without it first, also, Juggernaut and Grab counter Fend.
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BloodSkull
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Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby BloodSkull » 11 July 2014, 15:50

The main problem of Fend is that you must have it on most of your players.
If you get it just on some then the pomber will simply target those without it first, also, Juggernaut and Grab counter Fend.

I keep forgetting about Grab because it's a skill I rarely ever see it.


The BC has 4 AG, MA 6 (essentially 9 thanks to Sprint+Sure Feet), 4 STR, Block, AV 9, MB...one monster player I can't do anything at all to stop. Makes Vampires look like pussies.
I don't know... Is it the AV 8 or the Blood Lust nega-trait that makes Vampires look like pansies? With 4 skill increases you could make something a lot scarier than the BC.

Actually what does your team look like it might help?

hermanJnr.
Posts: 264
Joined: 18 August 2011, 09:40

Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby hermanJnr. » 12 July 2014, 10:31

I don't know... Is it the AV 8 or the Blood Lust nega-trait that makes Vampires look like pansies? With 4 skill increases you could make something a lot scarier than the BC.

Actually what does your team look like it might help?
Arguably yeah, you could...but even the world's fastest, strongest scariest Vampire in a 1500 TV team isn't backed up with two AV9 guys with Frenzy, Block, MB, Piling On and Claw ;)

Funnily enough, someone already said to me in game chat that they "knew that team" and it's renowned for being minmaxed to the eyeballs.

I dunno...it just feels like CD are strong to a point of fairness with their blocking line, then the Centaurs are a get out of jail free card for them. I drew with another CD team recently when the dude just decided to dodge the freaking BC out of a TZ and whack my carrier, 75% success chance with RR even with AG 2 and no Break Tackle. It's just a player that's a PITA to pin down.

And even if he decides not to move it, with STR 4 he essentially gets to lay a player out every time you mark him for free. One solution seems to be to foul the BC, but that clusters your guys up, which makes it easy for the blocking line to put you in the injury dug out rapidly...

---

*Ahem* Anyway, my Humans are sadly light on Catchers atm, that's going to be my next expense. I think I had 2 but they died or got maimed in a freak game, it's been months since I played them.

Team: TV 1420
15/16 players.

Blitzer: Block, Guard, MB, +1 STR (MNG)
Blitzer: Block
Blitzer: Block, Dodge, Guard (Niggling Injury)
Blitzer: Block, Dodge, Side-Step
Ogre: Guard, Break Tackle
Lineman: Dirty Player
Lineman: Wrestle, Dirty Player
Lineman: Wrestle (-1 MA)
Lineman: <Rookie>
Thrower: <Rookie> (MNG)
Lineman: <Rookie>
Thrower: Strong Arm, Block
Catcher: <Rookie>
Lineman: <Rookie>

Looking at it, I've gone a bit DP crazy, but I think that's my inner Norseman getting to me. ;)
Plus I like being able to hurt these horrible maxed out clawers, they often start playing a bit more conservative once one gets stretchered off rather than Piling On every blitz.

Might drop the reserves once I get the MNGs back, bought 2 linemen to render my foulers viable in the next match.
The main problem of Fend is that you must have it on most of your players.
If you get it just on some then the pomber will simply target those without it first, also, Juggernaut and Grab counter Fend.
I get it a lot on Norse, it's sometimes useful but I find on lower AV you get maimed so easily it often just adds to the amount of TV you lose on a hit. At high AV you normally want that player in contact with the opposition anyway to hit back or keep soaking up blocks, so Stand Firm is normally better. So it's a weird skill. Best on Elves, I'd say.
Formerly on the boards as "NinjaGammaMan".

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MattDakka
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Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby MattDakka » 12 July 2014, 11:54

Even Elves can't afford many Fend players.
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hermanJnr.
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Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby hermanJnr. » 13 July 2014, 11:43

A Shadowing Catcher will be simply pombed by a CD Blocker.
Actually the minmaxed teams like this: http://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=771665
without Bull Centaurs are a bigger issue.
Yeah, see for me this minmaxing is what absolutely kills the fun of BB, or at least BB in a matchmaking system. Contrary to the other comment, I don't think that's a "nice team", I think it's pretty lame. Yeah, by all means manage your team. Do manage the TV, to an extent. But just absolutely kicking the arse out of every drop of TV and every skill up to exploit the value matching system...

I don't think BB should be a game where your primary objective is to stop your team growing as it naturally would in order to forever smash teams that have sub-optimal skill levels to you at that TV.

Does everyone remember that phase of BB1 where you didn't have to take +ranks on your players, and there were dozens of Dwarf teams with MB, Guard and nothing else on all their players at 1350 TV? Remember how mind-numbingly lame and boring the game became?

It's fun going onto the pitch knowing that, even if the other team's race is "stronger" than yours at a specific TV (IE low TV Dwarves versus low TV Chaos), you still have a fair chance at winning because both teams have a reasonable mix of skills and aren't overloaded as to be extremely strong in one department.

What isn't fun is going onto the pitch knowing that you have 5 guys with Block and a reserve player and your opponent has 2 guys with Block, MB, Piling On, Frenzy, Claw and AV9 and no reserves because he's played 90 matches and spends all day sitting at home making sure he doesn't break 1500 TV.

You're not losing to superior tactics on the field or a clever combination of player skills, you're losing because the other guy has invested time cheesing the rules in order to out-kill you in the most thoughtless way imaginable.

I'd go as far as saying a lot of these minmaxers are the worst coaches I've faced: it's just "pile on every turn, use my abnormal amount of Claw to win" with absolutely zero thought at moving the ball or even maximising blocks through positioning (they don't have to with such a weighted skill advantage).
Formerly on the boards as "NinjaGammaMan".

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MattDakka
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Re: Chaos Dwarves and Bull Centaurs

Postby MattDakka » 13 July 2014, 12:35

Yeah, see for me this minmaxing is what absolutely kills the fun of BB, or at least BB in a matchmaking system. Contrary to the other comment, I don't think that's a "nice team", I think it's pretty lame. Yeah, by all means manage your team. Do manage the TV, to an extent. But just absolutely kicking the arse out of every drop of TV and every skill up to exploit the value matching system...
On FUMBBL after a team has played 29 matches there is no guarantee that it will be paired with a team having either the same TV or a very close one, so the rampant minmaxing has been partially addressed.
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