Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Your rosters, your strategies, advice, etc.
Vechs
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Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby Vechs » 14 August 2016, 23:52

Yo guys ! Recently got convinced to buy Bloodbowl 2 and I'm actually having a lot of fun, though I don't like to make "noob mistakes" when I'm building a team so, I'm asking you, great pro Bowl players to give me some nice tips you could've gotten from your experience !

I'm gonna play an Orcish team so I obviously ask for Orcs. I mean, I know how to create a team depending on what I want, taking a troll or not, 4 Black Orcs or not, Gobelin or not, etc and I know 4 Blitzers are mandatory because Orcish Blitzers are God Tier players. What I want to know is about skills... Is it basic like, Black Orcs only playing on Strenght skills or maybe give them some additionnal mobility so they can trade against the Saurus (for example ?), same for the Blitzers, make them stronger or faster, etc etc...
I just ask about linemen and goblins, are they even worth ? I mean, I've seen some teams (and mine is like this) that are made out of 1 Troll, 4 Black Orcs, 4 Blitzers, 1 Thrower and 1 Gobelin.

I would be very grateful about that ! Thank you !

twitch/the_sage_bb
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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby twitch/the_sage_bb » 15 August 2016, 09:26

A big decision is either to spam dodge on everyone, or to skip it (taking it only on a dedicated ball carrier). Either works, but halfway in between doesn't work too well.

black orcs: block, guard, mighty blow (you can take Mb before guard if you're eager for faster SPP, but guard is what they're for; at 16 SPP they're basically done, everything else is just bonus). Later options: tackle, piling on, stand firm, grab. Stats: only take + ST. Doubles: if you want to spam dodge on everyone, dodge. If you decide not to, skip or jump up if you have piling on.

Blitzers: get one mighty blow, piling on ASAP. Get another with tackle, mighty blow. Getting a frenzy is also very worthwhile (probably Mb, frenzy, juggernaut, stand firm). If you choose not to get a thrower, then you'll want a sure hands one. After those basics, get them all guard too. =)

Stats: any are good (with MA over AV on a 10).
Doubles: if you want to spam dodge on everyone, dodge. If you decide not to, skip or jump up if you have (or are soon planning to take) piling on.

Troll: Don't get one. If you do, cycle for block. Guard, stand firm normals. Second doubles dodge if you choose to spam it, otherwise pro. Stats: no. Skip +ST for block (ymmv).

Lineorcs: a single kick (block @ 16 SPP), a dirty player or two (whom you fire at 16 SPP). Stats: ST only. Doubles: guard (then block).

Thrower: maybe, maybe not. block, kick-off return, leader normals. MA5 on your main ball carrier sucks, as does focusing on passing except as a desperate plan B. Stats: Any (MA over AV). Doubles: dodge.

Goblin: only if you take a troll. Gives you a slim chance at an OTTD. Worth fouling with on occasion: normals: cycle (or ss after a good roll). Doubles: block. Stats: any (ideally AG; MA over AV).

Total: 12 or 13 players. 2 or 3 RRs
Last edited by twitch/the_sage_bb on 11 September 2016, 09:05, edited 2 times in total.
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Vechs
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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby Vechs » 15 August 2016, 11:57

Mmh okay I got 90% of what you told, that's not bad (I'm French, so got the game in French haha)

Just, why is the Troll worthless and why should I fire my 2 dirty linemen at 16 SPP ?
Also, what do you mean by "singlekick" .. Yeah, didn't get perfecly all since I don't know the game well :D
Aaaaand the last one... what is prior between a stat point and a skill when I have to choose ?
Thank you !

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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby twitch/the_sage_bb » 17 August 2016, 13:23

Mmh okay I got 90% of what you told, that's not bad (I'm French, so got the game in French haha)

Just, why is the Troll worthless and why should I fire my 2 dirty linemen at 16 SPP ?
Also, what do you mean by "singlekick" .. Yeah, didn't get perfecly all since I don't know the game well :D
Aaaaand the last one... what is prior between a stat point and a skill when I have to choose ?
Thank you !
You're very welcome.

The troll doesn't have access to general skills, so it can't take block. That means its blocks are risky. Also, it has loner, which means you can't rely on rerolling the blocks. Its main roles are a strong guard (which you can get plenty of with orcs) and throw team mate (which you shouldn't really need, and is pretty unreliable). A big part of why it's a bad idea to take one is team value management: an important aspect of building a good team in Blood Bowl. This can be counterintuitive: you have money to spend and growth seems like a good thing. However, a higher team value will result in tougher opponents, and/or more inducements for them, or fewer inducements for you. Basically, all improvements of your team need to 'pull their weight', otherwise they will actually hold you back. The same logic applies to firing the dirty player linemen if they reach 16 SPP. Their job is to foul the opponent's players, which means they are likely to get sent off for the remainder of the game. If a dirty player lineorc gets sent off, you lose a 70k TV player. If a dirty player + block + tackle + frenzy lineorc gets sent off, you lose a 110k TV player.

The most obvious ways to limit your team value to 'good value' are:
-Keeping your treasury at 150k or lower (anything over 150k gets added to your TV while doing nothing for your team). You can do this by hiring and then firing staff to get to exactly 150k.
-Not hiring assistant coaches or cheerleaders (some might argue for 1 or 2, but only on teams with expensive RRS that score a lot. Basically, just don't get any).
-Limiting your rerolls to a sensible number. The right number will usually vary between 2-4 based on preference, play style, and team composition. Many coaches in the COL play with 6-8 rerolls, and lose most of their games in part because of this.
-Choosing effective positionals (such as skipping the troll), limiting your bench (12 or 13 is enough on orcs, 15 or 16 would 'bloat' your team) and skillups (such as skipping +AG or +MA on a black orc, and not giving skills like catch or nerves of steel to blitzers, or strong arm to a thrower). There are a lot of heated arguments about which skills are good and which aren't (some might vehemently disagree with what I've posted here already), but this article should give you an idea of my thoughts on this.

The stat question is a tricky one. I wouldn't pass up +ST (except on the troll, for block, as mentioned above, or maybe on the goblin). I might pass up the +MA on a 5+5 roll for jumpup on a blitzer who already has piling on, or if I really want the dodge.
With 'a single kick' I meant take one, but no more, since only 1 player can use the skill.

If you have any other questions (about orcs, or other races, or about the game in general), feel free to drop by my stream some time. As you can probably tell, I love talking about Blood Bowl and teaching the game to (new) coaches.
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Vechs
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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby Vechs » 18 August 2016, 00:11

Dude you're awesome. I use to play very popular game such as World of Warcraft and League of Legends and it's just IMPOSSIBLE to get some help (or almost) from experienced player so I'm glad that I can get some nice tips when playing a less popular game. I tried to play lizardmen also, I love it, the Saurus are awesome, the Kroxigor is maybe the best Big Guy overall but the Skinks are terrible to manage for new coaches as they are damn hard to protect from a Blitz.

I'd surely come onto your stream soon, my nick is the same than here if you care about it !
Thanks again, I'm so not used to this behaviour toward me :D

Valcurdra
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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby Valcurdra » 18 August 2016, 07:40

For a rookie player

1 thrower
4 black orcs
4 blitzers
0 trolls
0 gobbos
3 lineman

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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby twitch/the_sage_bb » 18 August 2016, 09:45

Dude you're awesome. I use to play very popular game such as World of Warcraft and League of Legends and it's just IMPOSSIBLE to get some help (or almost) from experienced player so I'm glad that I can get some nice tips when playing a less popular game. I tried to play lizardmen also, I love it, the Saurus are awesome, the Kroxigor is maybe the best Big Guy overall but the Skinks are terrible to manage for new coaches as they are damn hard to protect from a Blitz.

I'd surely come onto your stream soon, my nick is the same than here if you care about it !
Thanks again, I'm so not used to this behaviour toward me :D
My pleasure, mate. =)
I'm far from an Orc expert (you can find my orc games here, but lizardman are right up my alley. My most played teams are skaven, dark elves, wood elves and lizardman.

Explaining how to play lizards well is pretty tough, though. Effectively protecting your skinks, getting your blocks in as safely as possible, and positioning in a way to make life hard for your opponent isn't something you can easily put into writing. You might want to look at some of my (many) lizard matches here).

Skilling advice for them is a lot easier. First off, try to get into a position where you can afford to fail a hand off to a saurus. An AG1 catch works 1/3 times, that's about 50/50 if you can spare a reroll. Your saurus have GS (general + strength) access, and SPPs on them make your team a lot better. Skinks only have A access, and if they roll normals then they'll make your team worse before too long (because of the value for TV thing).

Krox: guard, stand firm, break tackle. Doubles: block, then either dodge or pro (I'd go with dodge). Stats: +ST only (consider skipping for block, but I wouldn't).

Saurus: Everyone gets block at 6 SPP. After that, start with at least 2 guards at 16. Ideally, the others get tackle tackle, frenzy, and a mighty blow or two at 16 SPP. I really love dodge on doubles (especially to protect them from the often tackle-poor chaos), but you can build great (and dwarf-proof) lizards while skipping doubles altogether. I really like diving tackle on a second doubles, but ymmv.

Ideally, your saurus squad would develop towards some kind of specialization over time, but also all get guard (lizards can and should work towards having 7 ST4/5 players with guard. However, complete specialization + guard + blodge on all of them isn't actually possible.

I like having one of each of these roles (block +):
basher: tackle, break tackle, mighty blow, piling on, guard
surfer: frenzy, break tackle, stand firm, juggernaut, guard
marker: dodge, diving tackle. stand firm, break tackle, guard

For the line of scrimmage saurus, block + guard suffices. Dodge is great on them too. Then pick up some mighty blow. Should they live beyond that, fend, stand firm, tackle and break tackle are all decent options. A second surfer isn't bad either.
Note that this is how I like my lizards. Giving guard, frenzy and tackle before picking up mighty blow or break tackle means you will need to rely on positioning play and ST advantage, rather than numbers advantage and easy dodges.
Having ST4 MA6 GS access gives you a lot of options, and others will work too. If you want to give all saurus Mb at 16 (or even at 6) SPP, your team will probably still do pretty well (and you will not have to rely on saurus TDs after that). Some people love giving break tackle earlier (but it's a bit of a crutch).

Skinks
normals: sidestep. If they become worth keeping (any non-normal roll), then sure feet, then sprint.
doubles: block, sure hands (might swap the order on those). If you already have a block + sure hands, you might consider trying a wrestle+strip ball, but I never went there, nor felt that I needed one. Besides, redundancy is useful on an AV7 stunty.

Stats: anything but AV. +AG on a skink is amazing for your team. AG5 might be worth skipping (I wouldn't, but I'd know I was wrong not to). ST is pretty good. MA is very nice, especially if you learn to use chainpushes to one-turn-touchdown (OTTD); if you give an MA9 skink sprint, he only needs to be pushed once to get into touchdown range (though I'd still give him sidestep and sure feet first).

As I said, normal rolls suck. You really want these guys NOT so soak up your SPPs. A skink or two with sidestep + diving tackle is fine, but if that skink rolls something nice (take ST, AG, or MA), you're stuck with diving tackle on a nice player, which is not that great (diving tackle is used to get in the way, and hence will get your skink killed. What I do to avoid this, is I give skinks sidestep on normals at 6 SPP, and if they roll normals again at 16 SPP, I fire them. That way, you get more chances at a good skillup roll (because you get 2 skillups in your first 16 SPPs, and only 1 more in the next 15), and you have less dead TV hanging around. If you find yourself pressed for cash, you can either decide to make them expendable at 16 SPP (diving tackle), or invest in a good roll later, giving them sure feet at 16 SPP.

A single good roll is enough to keep a skink, though. Your ideal carrier would have +AG, block, sure hands (I never had one of those). A +MA sure feet, sprint is a great oneturner (though of course another MA and an AG would help too). Some people like giving dirty player to a skink who rolls doubles at 6 SPP, but I think it's a waste. My ideal lizard team would have 11 blodge. =)
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Valcurdra
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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby Valcurdra » 18 August 2016, 10:20

Do not even touch lizards if you are new is my advice. They are prone to huge variance.

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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby twitch/the_sage_bb » 18 August 2016, 13:07

Do not even touch lizards if you are new is my advice. They are prone to huge variance.
Their AG3 ball carriers (with no sure hands) and blockless strong guys (until they skill) can make for some bad moments, sure. However, I do think that lizards (especially without early MB or BT) can really teach you the value of solid positioning.
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Vechs
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Re: Tips & Tricks for a beginner ? [Orcs]

Postby Vechs » 18 August 2016, 14:18

Well, to be honest I don't care about "Don't try this, don't try that". I play to have fun, and I won't play a human team just because they are easy to learn. I just like Lizardmen... 6/4/1/9 is an awesome stat line for Saurus and I want to use it !

Though, Sage, what do you think about having a pair of Saurus with Block + Tackle + Mighty Blow ? Seems quite bashy no ?


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