Tie breaker system

Everything dealing with the video game developed by Cyanide!
logain
Posts: 303
Joined: 11 March 2012, 08:34

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby logain » 22 December 2015, 17:31

TD difference + CAS difference advantages bash too much, as seen in Franco Bowl after 15 seasons. They are experimenting TD difference + 1/2 CAS difference.

As said during playtest, TD difference should be it. Ultimately the game is about scoring touch downs, not about scoring casualties. Casualties are a way for bash to win the games, but should not be an objective to get a better place.

Anyway random is bas, no league will accept that so they will handle forum help rankings, and will have to change the tickets at the end of the season to match the forum's result.
As a side note, tickets were a good idea in theory, but it gives more administrative work / hassle in the end, as in leagues there are always teams who leave (either they stop or change team) and tickets do not match.

Of course allowing admin to choose between different possibilities would be the best solution.

User avatar
TheSpydyr
Posts: 1226
Joined: 02 April 2012, 16:03

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby TheSpydyr » 22 December 2015, 17:50

TD difference + CAS difference advantages bash too much, as seen in Franco Bowl after 15 seasons. They are experimenting TD difference + 1/2 CAS difference.
We are experiencing the same thing as well, hence why we are looking into doing the 1/2 CAS.

As said during playtest, TD difference should be it. Ultimately the game is about scoring touch downs, not about scoring casualties. Casualties are a way for bash to win the games, but should not be an objective to get a better place.
I couldn't disagree more. Just doing TD difference favors the AG teams too heavily and lessens the chances for bash teams. The ultimate goal of the game is to score TD's, that part I agree with, but for a bash team to score TD's and WIN the match, they need to bash and will mostly only score once or twice in a match. Whereas a speedy AG team can score 3, 4, or even 5 times. Way too unbalanced to just use TD Difference as the breaker.

There needs to be a balanced way to include favorable #'s for both the AG based teams and the bash based teams. And, you are wrong about the scoring of Casualties as well IMO. The name of the game is Blood Bowl and casualties are an integral part of that game and the only valid strategy for a bash based, slow moving team. And those teams should be using Casualties as an objective to get a better place, just like the speedy AG based teams should be using the higher amount of TD's to their favor.

Again there has to be some balancing on this. It shouldn't overly favor one style over the other.
Spydyr

Image
The RNG is not broken, you are not "the unluckiest coach in the world" and the computer does not cheat, you just suck.

Twitch
YouTube

Kogara
Posts: 47
Joined: 28 September 2015, 17:27

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby Kogara » 22 December 2015, 18:17

Why wouldn't you look at the coaches past opponents during that league. If a tie occurs look back at previous match (s)
Coach A vs coach B tie
Look back for coach A
Coach a vs coach C
Coach C went 5-1 only losing to coach a
Look back for coach B
Coach B vs Coach D
Coach D went 4-1-1
Winner of round Coach A

Javelin
Posts: 418
Joined: 08 November 2012, 18:58

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby Javelin » 22 December 2015, 18:43

Total touchdowns should favor AG teams, but TD difference shouldn't be heavily biased. Sure bash teams may only score once or twice in a victorious match, but they will only allow their opponent 0 or 1 TD's.

User avatar
TheSpydyr
Posts: 1226
Joined: 02 April 2012, 16:03

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby TheSpydyr » 22 December 2015, 19:33

Total touchdowns should favor AG teams, but TD difference shouldn't be heavily biased. Sure bash teams may only score once or twice in a victorious match, but they will only allow their opponent 0 or 1 TD's.
That is not necessarily true either. There have been plenty of times where I bashed an elf/zon/skaven team into the dirt and out-cased the team, but still lost 3-1 or 4-1. I have adminned and run many leagues now across multiple formats and the TD Diff + CAS Diff works the best for being the most accurately fair system. But, as I said earlier, the CAS Diff at 1 point per is a little high over time, so that is why we are looking at using the .5 per number instead.
Spydyr

Image
The RNG is not broken, you are not "the unluckiest coach in the world" and the computer does not cheat, you just suck.

Twitch
YouTube

logain
Posts: 303
Joined: 11 March 2012, 08:34

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby logain » 22 December 2015, 20:46

As said during playtest, TD difference should be it. Ultimately the game is about scoring touch downs, not about scoring casualties. Casualties are a way for bash to win the games, but should not be an objective to get a better place.
I couldn't disagree more. Just doing TD difference favors the AG teams too heavily and lessens the chances for bash teams.

And those teams should be using Casualties as an objective to get a better place, just like the speedy AG based teams should be using the higher amount of TD's to their favor.
Yes, TD difference gives an "advantage" to AG, *in case of same number* of points. But AG has more chances to have a bad game in a season (relying too much on D6s).

Also it doesn't happen that often that AG teams score 3-0, because they also have to do with grind. Giving bash use of cas difference only makes grinding more important, if there isn't they will sometimes try to score more instead of grinding.

What i say is based on personal experience - what i saw in many seasons in two big leagues (Orca Cola and Franco Bowl) is that with the first using TD difference only we have somewhat balanced numbers between AG / Bash / hybrid in the top divisions & title access, and that with the second 90% of the top division were bash (one wood elf team, some dark elves, many orcs, necro, nurgle, chaos...).

Also if you want to compare Bash and AG, then you should agree that Bash teams's lifetime is much longer than AG, so in a 6 divisions league & 10 teams divisions like Orca Cola AG can't access the title before 54 games, some AG teams never make it where Bash has time.

User avatar
dode74
Posts: 7040
Joined: 11 December 2008, 11:18
Location: Nr. Reading, UK
Contact:

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby dode74 » 22 December 2015, 21:11

Looking at FOL data:

There is a strong correlation between a race's mean TD difference and their win percentage (duh!).
There is a weak negative correlation between a race's mean cas difference and their win percentage.
There is a slightly stronger negative correlation between a race's mean TD difference and their mean cas difference.

There is much more variance in the cas difference numbers than in the TD difference numbers. You're either taking more cas or causing more consistently, but TDs are far less predictable. The variance in cas difference is almost 6 times the variance in TD difference, with the bashers consistently positive and the agi teams consistently negative.

To me this says TD difference should be weighted considerably more than cas difference to make things "fair".
Image

User avatar
TheSpydyr
Posts: 1226
Joined: 02 April 2012, 16:03

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby TheSpydyr » 22 December 2015, 22:10

Hence why I stated that the numbers were too high for CAS and why we were trying the new system with a 1/2 point per. I think Logain(?) was the other one that said their league had experienced the same thing and was also trying the 1/2 difference.
Spydyr

Image
The RNG is not broken, you are not "the unluckiest coach in the world" and the computer does not cheat, you just suck.

Twitch
YouTube

User avatar
dode74
Posts: 7040
Joined: 11 December 2008, 11:18
Location: Nr. Reading, UK
Contact:

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby dode74 » 22 December 2015, 22:51

Well let me put it this way: a t-test comparing the agi teams (skaven and 4-elves) TD difference with bash teams' TD difference (Chaos, CD, Dwarf, Khemri, Nurgle, Orc*) showed that we could not reject the null: we can't say there is an advantage for agi teams over bash teams (or vice versa) when looking at TD difference. We most certainly can do that for cas difference, with bash teams having a considerable advantage.

I would reject using cas entirely on that basis.

* Some say Undead should be included as bash, but personally I consider them hybrid due to the 4 A access players. Either way, if you do include them then it does not change the results: Undead actually have the best TD difference of all the teams.
Image

User avatar
TheSpydyr
Posts: 1226
Joined: 02 April 2012, 16:03

Re: Tie breaker system

Postby TheSpydyr » 22 December 2015, 23:07

* Some say Undead should be included as bash, but personally I consider them hybrid due to the 4 A access players.
I consider Undead and Necro as both being Hybrid.
Spydyr

Image
The RNG is not broken, you are not "the unluckiest coach in the world" and the computer does not cheat, you just suck.

Twitch
YouTube


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron