Reducing the salt and time

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mordrek
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Reducing the salt and time

Postby mordrek » 13 January 2017, 09:50

One big issue with BB is the massive amount of salt involved.
My IRL partners in crime usually get excited every two or three years and after the second round-robin people start dropping out due to frustration with the game.
If you got to make a new version of BB, how would you lower frustration while keeping the excitement?

One part of the problem is that at times it feels like you have no control.
You fail to pickup the ball for a full half or get Blitzed! three kickoffs in a row.
Reducing the risk of these events however also mean that you lower the excitement and the chance for heroic actions.
It also makes it possible for the underdog to sometimes win due to miracles.

For kick-off events I really think some small changes would be great: Max X people out from sweltering heat, reroll if getting same kickoff-event as last time, only stuns from kickoff-events.

For rolls it gets harder. Getting rid of D6 and instead using for example D10 would give less drastic steps between rolls.
Perhaps that would allow for some tinkering?

Another big part for me is that the game takes so long time.
Getting butchered at the start and having to sit through the only uninterrupted 2 hours you had this week is a biiiiig drag.
If the game was shorter or you didn't have to actively sit through it, It wouldn't matter as much if you lost a match due to three cas on turn 1.

My dream would be to adjust the game to a mail-game-system.
You just play your turn on the phone on your way home and your opponents gets an alert when it's done so that he can do his turn and so on.
And how would you adjust the game to handle this?

Well, all opponent interaction during your turn must be removed.

All skills must be automatically used.
What skills would be most problematic? sidestep, diving tackle?
Yup, it would change the power of the skills, but I think it would be possible to adapt or adjust the most extreme issues.

Apo usage must be automatic. Perhaps a 5+ regeneration roll instead?

That's it?

Dream, dream, dream...

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VoodooMike
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby VoodooMike » 13 January 2017, 10:42

I'll preface this by saying:

A) I hate that you brought this up because I prefer to simply say mean things about you.
B) It's a pipe dream in terms of Cyanide's products. You'd have to build your own to see these things realized.
If you got to make a new version of BB, how would you lower frustration while keeping the excitement?
Make the default rules lack long-term attrition, moving those to "optional" rules for people who want a more punishing game. A lot of the bad blood you see online stems from long-term attrition rather than anything at a purely match level. If the other guy can't ruin more than a single match for you, there's a whole lot less emotional investment in each match, and that means less "salt" directed at other players, and at the game as a whole.
One part of the problem is that at times it feels like you have no control.
You fail to pickup the ball for a full half or get Blitzed! three kickoffs in a row.
Reducing the risk of these events however also mean that you lower the excitement and the chance for heroic actions.
It also makes it possible for the underdog to sometimes win due to miracles.
The underdog can always win sometimes due to the massive amount of randomness in the game. That said, I think picking the ball up should be more like GFI... it should be almost guaranteed. That particular roll is obnoxious. Kick-off events are fine in general... the game was meant to be random. Somewhere along the lines people decided to take it seriously and pretend it was meant to be genuinely competitive... and by "people" I mean the BBRC and maybe even JJ. It was a mistake.
Another big part for me is that the game takes so long time.
Getting butchered at the start and having to sit through the only uninterrupted 2 hours you had this week is a biiiiig drag.
If the game was shorter or you didn't have to actively sit through it, It wouldn't matter as much if you lost a match due to three cas on turn 1.
I'm not sure you'll ever get the games cut down significantly. Removing the wait time on your turn resulting from choices the other guy has to make would help, but it'd still be a long game. Blood Bowl was never made to be quick and making it significantly faster would result in something very different. You might be better of making a new game that has quick matches as a goal from the start of design.
My dream would be to adjust the game to a mail-game-system.
Well, all opponent interaction during your turn must be removed.
Here's a short thread on TFF that might fit what you're thinking of. Turns out Galak himself already had some mapped out from the PBEM version of BB that had been in use in past years.
Apo usage must be automatic. Perhaps a 5+ regeneration roll instead?
The way I had it mapped out was having Apothecary usage moved to the start of your own turn if the casualty occurred during the opponent's turn. Before taking other actions you'd have the choice to apply the apothecary to any of the pending casualty rolls that had happened, and applying the re-rolled result to the player then. For the less punishing version of the game, apothecaries would always turn any result into Badly Hurt and put the player back in reserves.

For KO you sort'v have to pick a side of the fence and make life a bit harder on the giver or receiver of the hit. Either the player stays on the field pending the possible apothecary roll, making an otherwise empty square occupied for the rest of the turn... or you say KOs always send the player to reserves and the apoth can simply skip the recovery roll for them.
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

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mordrek
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby mordrek » 13 January 2017, 10:52

Here's a short thread on TFF that might fit what you're thinking of. Turns out Galak himself already had some mapped out from the PBEM version of BB that had been in use in past years.
Thanks, very nice read!
This is what I need to be able to increase my BB dose.
Are you or someone else still working on it?

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Scram Lyche
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby Scram Lyche » 13 January 2017, 14:38

Eliminating the setup turns could shave 10 - 20 minutes off a game. Multiple setups could be saved in 'training' and then you just choose which formation to use before kickoff from the list - your own setups or tried and trusted default ones.. 'Ok I'm up against a tough Dwarf team, my Elves are going to try that Arrow defence I created.'

Each team could have 20 or more setup 'slots' for answers to a great many opponents, an its just pick one in 20 seconds or the game uses your chosen default defence or attack setups. Would greatly reduce the playtime and the game would maintain great tempo from the kickoff till the final whistle, none of that faffing about placing individual pieces tedium that breaks up the action so badly.

I thought so from when I first started playing, and still think its an ugly mechanic.. the setup phase is one ungainly slice of unnecessary.

So if you want to streamline the game, that's where I would start, it would also probably help to reduce the possibility of those obnoxious 1 turn touchdowns that some teams are capable of.

Of course, both coaches choose they setup simultaneously and secretly, so no advantage for the attacker anymore, except the obvious one of going first turn.

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VoodooMike
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby VoodooMike » 13 January 2017, 19:44

Are you or someone else still working on it?
Shortly after that thread GW announced they were reviving the Blood Bowl brand and producing a new set, so I shelved that project. Given how profoundly different the FF re-issues of GW games were, I didn't want to put in all the effort only to have to start over later.

There are PBEM leagues in existence using the old PBEM software, and at least one VASSAL PBEM league, though as that thread suggests it relies somewhat on an honor system when dealing with the other guy's moves during your turn. Those appear to be the only non-realtime options that don't involve a physical board and face-to-face human beings.
Eliminating the setup turns could shave 10 - 20 minutes off a game. Multiple setups could be saved in 'training' and then you just choose which formation to use before kickoff from the list - your own setups or tried and trusted default ones.. 'Ok I'm up against a tough Dwarf team, my Elves are going to try that Arrow defence I created.'
You don't need to remove setup, you just need to have decent formation saving. When you have the latter, most people start from one of their save formations and then just customize it a little bit to suit the particular match. When a Blood Bowl implementation doesn't have working formation saving you know for a fact the developers don't play the game.
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

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Darkson
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby Darkson » 13 January 2017, 21:13

Most (all?) PBeM leagues used (use?) a rule that if you injured a player you couldn't enter that square in case the opponent wanted to use their Apo. If you really needed to enter the square (for whatever reason) you had to send the file mid-turn to your opponent for them to decide on Apo use or not. Not ideal, but worked the majority of the time.

On shorter matches, maybe you should give Dreadball a try (and then try and get Mntic to make/contract a digital version) and/or hope that someone makes a Streetbowl/BB7 digital version of BB.
Last edited by Darkson on 13 January 2017, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.

JohnnyFeyev
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby JohnnyFeyev » 13 January 2017, 21:15

FYI, using Goblin Spy, some genius game up with, the average game length for the last 100 I was able to pull (25 of which were concedes) out of the Champs 3 ladder, the average game time was 57.54 (I'm assuming minutes.) taking the 25 concedes out only increases it to 68 minutes. That seems low to me. The longest game was 101. Just throwing numbers out there. This forum LOOOOOOVES numbers.

licker34
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby licker34 » 13 January 2017, 22:00

Most (all?) PBeM leagues used (use?) a rule that if you injured a player you couldn't enter that square in case the opponent wanted to use their Apo. If you really needed to enter the square (for whatever reason) you had to send the file mid-turn to your opponent for them to decide on Apo use or not. Not ideal, but worked the majority of the time.

On shorter matches, maybe you should give Dreadball a try (and then try and get Mntic to make/contract a digital version) and/or hope that someone makes a Streetbowl/BB7 digital version of BB.
Do you mean KOed? Because using the apo on in injured player doesn't put him back on the pitch.

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Darkson
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby Darkson » 13 January 2017, 22:14

Do you mean KOed? Because using the apo on in injured player doesn't put him back on the pitch.
That would be now, yeah. I've not played in a PBeM league for many years, so not sure how they deal with it now.
Back when I played PBeM the Apo put the player back on the field (one of the leagues had levelled Apos that could do more, but that's off-topic).
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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TalkFantasyFootball admin - PM me if you need help.
Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.

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VoodooMike
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Re: Reducing the salt and time

Postby VoodooMike » 13 January 2017, 23:13

Most (all?) PBeM leagues used (use?) a rule that if you injured a player you couldn't enter that square in case the opponent wanted to use their Apo. If you really needed to enter the square (for whatever reason) you had to send the file mid-turn to your opponent for them to decide on Apo use or not. Not ideal, but worked the majority of the time.
Just making the square inaccessible pending their turn and their apo choice is probably best if you're playing full attrition... then its slightly easier on the victim at the expense of the hitter. If it was rez I'd say go the other way, with KOs always taking them off the field.
On shorter matches, maybe you should give Dreadball a try (and then try and get Mntic to make/contract a digital version) and/or hope that someone makes a Streetbowl/BB7 digital version of BB.
Plenty of ways to make a quicker game better suited for online play, but then you can't tap the existing userbase as easily.
FYI, using Goblin Spy, some genius game up with, the average game length for the last 100 I was able to pull (25 of which were concedes) out of the Champs 3 ladder, the average game time was 57.54 (I'm assuming minutes.) taking the 25 concedes out only increases it to 68 minutes. That seems low to me. The longest game was 101. Just throwing numbers out there. This forum LOOOOOOVES numbers.
Season 2 of CCL had both a mean and median game length of 74 minutes for each completed match. That's still a long time for a single match, and maybe more time than the average adult with a family he actually wants to interact with has in a given evening.. that's extra true when you consider the high concession rate, which means that you might have to weather some partial matches before getting that match that averages 74 minutes in length..
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.


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