Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

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JimmyFantastic
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Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby JimmyFantastic » 28 May 2017, 09:01

It's about Streetfighter 5 but a lot of it is very applicable to Blood Bowl in general and Blood Bowl 2 too.
https://youtu.be/iSgA_nK_w3A
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SuperGnu
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby SuperGnu » 28 May 2017, 14:02

So what you are saying is that they need to remove Claw and dices? 8-)

Fashbinder
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby Fashbinder » 28 May 2017, 16:19

I shed a tear when they said profound sadness :(

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VoodooMike
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby VoodooMike » 28 May 2017, 16:36

It's about Streetfighter 5 but a lot of it is very applicable to Blood Bowl in general and Blood Bowl 2 too
I don't think it applies to BB2 much at all, honestly. It could, if they changed the fundamental mechanics of the game, but there hasn't been much that qualifies in BB2.

The video focuses on the choice between appealing to a larger casual playerbase, and a smaller more intense competitive playerbase... and BB2 doesn't actually need to choose one or the other - it could very easily cater to BOTH, which I think we can all agree would be optimal. The biggest issue within the community is the people who don't understand that it CAN be both.

At the moment it realistically caters to neither.

Lets take full TVPlus as an example, since the concept has been accused of eliminating the skill gap in BB. By the video's doctrine that'd make BB2 appeal to a larger playerbase, but would ruin it for loyal competitive players... but keep in mind what the video is using as it's real example: competitive tournament play. TVPlus doesn't affect tournament play at all as it is a purely matchmaking system, not a change to the fundamental mechanics of the game as a whole.

In tournaments the goal is to be the final victor... in matchmaking there is no final victor, there is just rankings. TVPlus still gives very accurate skill rankings, it just also makes every matched balanced between the two participants even if they're of different skill levels. That's accessibility to a broader playerbase (that includes new players and casuals) while still being able to discern who the truly skilled coaches are via the rankings.

Even if full TVPlus were used in matchmaking, we could still hold true tournaments... in fact, the numbers generated from the TVPlus environment would let us hold tournaments where the mechanical difference between rosters was properly compensated for, leaving only coaching skill as the per-match bias, which is what you WANT in competitive games, but not what you get in present BB tournaments.

Now, all that said, Cyanide/Focus's strategy seems to be to just cross their fingers and hope things work themselves out... which they never do. It's stupid.. it would benefit them, financially, to make the game more broadly accessible.. but they seem to think they know better - a fact that the downward spiral in population of their BB offerings demonstrates is not the case.
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

triperis
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby triperis » 29 May 2017, 13:30

That channel actually has made a few relevant videos for a competitive environment, but I doubt this is one of them. I am not exactly sure of the basic claim. Is anybody calling for BB2 to be dumbed down? Entry level to BB2 is high, but now finally people actually have a decent campaign and can play AI until they realize they need proper competition. What is this video supposed to prove? That BB2 is hardcore? Did anybody claim otherwise?

Phage
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby Phage » 29 May 2017, 22:44

The core issue is TV+ and whether it is relevant to CCL which is a *tournament* competition with playoffs and cash prizes not a standard matchmaking environment.The argument is that TV+ acts to dumb down the environment making luck a greater factor than skill to achieve a (closer to) 50% win rate. Long term competitive players want skill to be the deciding factor and I tend to agree with them.

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VoodooMike
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby VoodooMike » 30 May 2017, 03:49

The core issue is TV+ and whether it is relevant to CCL which is a *tournament* competition with playoffs and cash prizes not a standard matchmaking environment.
No, you're evoking false parity between TVPlus rating matching and full TVPlus. The former exists in BB2, the latter does not, but the latter is what I was talking about.

In CCL the use of TVPlus rating matching is actually better than using TV matching due to how the rankings are calculated. It makes it far less likely for people to get and rely on "lucky streaks" of wins like they did in the original World Cup qualifiers, but does not ultimately punish people for higher games played because the rankings incentivise higher numbers of games played with automatic higher ranking... meaning that the TVPlus rating matching prevents people from simply coasting on games played.
The argument is that TV+ acts to dumb down the environment making luck a greater factor than skill to achieve a (closer to) 50% win rate.
Only the argument made by someone who doesn't really understand the system... in your case, someone who doesn't understand the difference between full TVPlus, which is what pushes people toward a long-term 50% win rate (while still ranking them accurately by skill) and what is ACTUALLY IN PLACE in CCL, which is not that.
Long term competitive players want skill to be the deciding factor and I tend to agree with them.
Intelligent players understand the difference between the qualification process which is the matchmaking environment, and the resulting tournament which actually results in cash prizes and glory. The tournament system does not use TVPlus in any way.. it wouldn't under full TVPlus either (thought there are ways it could do so to better focus on coaching skill). Under full TVPlus, however, the qualification process would more accurately determine the best of the best for each roster before then pitting them against each other in a separate elimination tournament.

The so-called "competitive players" who complain about TVPlus (in either form) are really just people who think they're better than they are, and who look for excuses for their poor showings in the competitive environments.
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

Ducke
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby Ducke » 30 May 2017, 05:28

The so-called "competitive players" who complain about TVPlus (in either form) are really just people who think they're better than they are, and who look for excuses for their poor showings in the competitive environments.

I dont agree with that at all, i just want less nonsense in the way of me qualifying. Getting tougher matchups if said matchups are available just makes it more of a grind and very few people have time to commit that many hours to qualify consistently.
Skill is not a big enough deciding factor of succes as far as qualifying is concerned and i dont see how removing the current bare bones version of tv+ would make the environment less competetive and nobody in their right mind should want it to be more grindy if they want to enjoy playing without burning out after a few seasons
Last edited by Ducke on 30 May 2017, 06:03, edited 1 time in total.

Phage
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby Phage » 30 May 2017, 05:53

VoodooMike, that's your opinion mate :). Mine is that skilled players should not face an artificial mechanical (TV) handicap in order to produce an ideal 50% win rate across the population. That trend towards dumbing down the difficulty for less skilled players is exactly what the video was discussing. There is no other reason to force players with even 1 win to be penalised by matching them against higher TV.

Phage
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Re: Amazing Video here, very relevant to Bloodbowl!

Postby Phage » 30 May 2017, 05:57

And yes we can nitpick about CCL being non tournament until the finals all day. The reality is that the first stage of the tournament is critical to the final result as you have to qualify in order to be in with a chance for prizes. Anything that attempts to handicap skill in a prize competition is ridiculous. The first stage of a CCL season is really just an open qualifier as part of the tournament as a whole.


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