A praise to the open league

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Niessuh
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A praise to the open league

Postby Niessuh » 27 June 2017, 08:40

I just wanted to praise the competition format of the open ladder and put some feedback with this post. I know that it is not the main focus for developers and the most veteran community, but for various reasons remains the main competition chosen by most players, private leagues apart.

It is a fact that despite offering cash prizes and having been the center of attention, the champions league does not attract the same number of players as the open league. This is normal, in my case I certainly do not have the time to play the champions league, despite some tries my work and my daughter will not let me in. As you can see in the great players who classifies each edition, in order to be really competitive in the Champions ladder requires you to play many games a day when it starts, so you could get an advantage TV position in most matches (and avoid clawpombing and other high TV abuses against your fresh team). Then one game per day later on. Otherwise you should prepare yourself to suffer great disadvantages. It's a competition for people with a lot of free time, university students and retirees.

In addition, being forced to continually win and restart failed teams creates a stress level that adds to the usual attrition that Blood Bowl has. You just have to watch the usual anger and salt on some of the matches broadcasted on Twitch. By contrast, the open league allows you to play at the pace you want and you do not need to restart teams continuously. I guess it also fits better with the humorous background and history of Blood Bowl. In summary, I suppose being more competitive entails more attrition, but in my case, I do not want to participate in a competiton having a time disadvantage.

The only problem I see in the open league is that when you get to high TVs, mass CLAWPOMBING begins and the game gets dramatically worse. Make no mistake, I have several clawpombers teams to “enjoy” on my part, but I do not think that is the best part of the game. I really hope the Pile On change of the new edition gets implemented in the future. Not the change I wanted, but better that nothing.

Keep that way!

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SirIronclad
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby SirIronclad » 27 June 2017, 22:32

I really hope the Pile On change of the new edition gets implemented in the future.

Woah, easy there!

The team hit by that change the hardest was Norse as it turned Berserkers into nothing more than bloat. All the mass Claw+MB teams are still going strong. I agree that Clawpomb is op, especially in BB2 ladders, but PO really isn't the issue. PO as it still exists in BB2 already is a risk vs. reward skill. That aspect becomes skewed when people use it to actually avoid getting hit back.

There are loads of other ways of directly or indirectly nerfing Clawpomb without removing a skill from the game. Here are my personal favourites:

1. don't allow the effects of Claw and MB to stack (you can choose which to use if you have both on a player) -> buffs to Orcs and Dwarves

2. buff fouling -> buff to fouling teams, nerf to squishy teams

4. allow subs to enter the field during drives (not sure who this favours, probably teams focused on playing the ball)

3. remake the Bank Rule to make replacing players significantly easier -> buff to squishy teams, indirect nerf to regen teams

5. buff Apothecaries -> buff to squishy teams, indirect nerf to regen teams

6. add a mechanic allowing you to resurrect/heal players on your team between matches -> buff to squishy teams, indirect nerf to regen teams

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dode74
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby dode74 » 27 June 2017, 23:30

Clawpomb is op
Apart from the data saying otherwise...

But let's not go there, eh ;)

As an aside, a buff to Apo's (#5) is more of a buff to bash than to squishies (because you only get one, and a team which takes more than one cas gets no benefit beyond the first cas). Of your list, #6 is my favourite. I already suggested a means to do it.
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Niessuh
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby Niessuh » 28 June 2017, 08:57

As I said make pile on useless is not the change I wanted, but better that nothing.
1. don't allow the effects of Claw and MB to stack (you can choose which to use if you have both on a player) -> buffs to Orcs and Dwarves
This is the better one IMHO and the most simple and rational change to make.

Maybe Clawpomb is not OP with individual match statistics that maybe dictates that high TV elf teams are way more OP, but the thing here is that mass CLAWPOMBING is gamechanging and not in a good way. Yeah you could be a man and face them, suck it up and hold and maybe win, but thing is, I have played so many of this games to realize is not worthy at all. The casuality rate is so high at those levels that when you have used your apo, you have to keep your mouse over the concede button in order to survive. Otherwise your team will be destroyed and the clawpomber player will be laughing even if he loses. This is not what I want from a Blood Bowl match. And this happens in the Champions Ladder too, that's one of the reasons why good players play a lot of matches early on and then hold their teams when clawpombing begins, causing the matches numbers to decline later on.

Just have a look at what happened when Psiclops's HE had to play a last match before Champs ladder ended. Yes he classified anyways, but look at his team now
Last edited by Niessuh on 28 June 2017, 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

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dode74
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby dode74 » 28 June 2017, 09:43

Maybe Clawpomb is not OP with individual match statistics that maybe dictates that high TV elf teams are way more OP
Actually it's aggregate match statistics which show that CPOMB is not OP - it's in individual matches where the problems lie, and that's because of the high variance, particularly of PO. The problem is not that it is OP, because it's not: the problem lies in the second part of your statement:
The casuality rate is so high at those levels
It's not that the rate is high, it's that it can be high. The mean casualty rate is not sufficiently high to be gamechanging at all, but you get games where there are no cas and then you get games where there are 8 or so, and it's the extremes which can be problematic for people. Obviously most people don't see an issue with the low-cas games, but where the high-cas games also have long-term impacts people see a problem with it. That's why resolving the long-term casualty issue would be a better solution than changing the in-game mechanics: in-game the balance demonstrably works, and providing an out-of-game way of reducing the long-term frustration would resolve the issue of the high long term impact of a few high-cas games. Hence either the team doctor idea, or, at the extreme end of the spectrum, a full res league.
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Niessuh
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby Niessuh » 28 June 2017, 10:06

I agree with you about clawpombing being a very random thing, so random than anybody could play the roullette and win, or be destroyed. And that happens at the high TV levels, when all of the other random issues diminish.

That's why noobs just go straight for the clawpombing at the open ladder. When you reach it, you could win against anybody at the first turn with almost no coach skill required. Hence the "BB is broken argument" and so on

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dode74
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby dode74 » 28 June 2017, 10:26

Again, that's down to variance rather than the mean damage being too high. The actual odds of injury from a CPOMB are set about right on average, and the win rates back that up. The variance, though, is what is too high: the games when the variance is on the CPOMBer's side are a wash, and similarly they tend to lose when the variance is not on their side. Tightening up that variance without changing the odds too much would require a significant change to PO (it's the reroll which creates the extra variance). Alternatively, simply reduce/remove the long-term effects of it and the long term effect when your team gets CPOMBed off the pitch (which happens, but less than people complain about) reduces considerably. There are other ways apart from the post-match doc: any PO or Claw use can only be BH or MNG at worst, for example.
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby Javelin » 29 June 2017, 18:12

You could only allow claw to be used once per turn, much like passing or hand off. Or maybe if its used more than once per turn there's a chance the ref sees it and throws the player out.

I don't think teams like necro or skaven would be affected much. It's just the high TV chaos and nurgle teams that may have claw/MB on 5 players that it would affect a lot...

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dode74
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby dode74 » 29 June 2017, 18:48

Again, an in-game nerf will have an effect on their already-average win rates.
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Koadah
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Re: A praise to the open league

Postby Koadah » 29 June 2017, 21:12

Aw crap. You guys started without me!

Nerf it! Nerf it good!

Or are you going to stay official? Because staying official is good?

Thought you'd sneak it by me by not putting CPOMB in the title eh?
CaRBB


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