Need more Creativity and Competitiveness!

Share your ideas and Suggestions about Blood Bowl 2.
WWWilliam
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Need more Creativity and Competitiveness!

Postby WWWilliam » 09 January 2014, 13:35

Possible new gamemode for BB2 (Or BB 3's main gamemode)

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RULE CHANGES FOR BLOOD BOWL FOR BLOODSKULL Teams: All teams will start with nothing except $1mill. Which is the perfect amount of money to buy of 16 linemen of Stats: MV 6 ST 3 AG 3 AV 5 Cost: $62,500 At initial start up teams will have $1mill. You can buy any amount of "Linemen" you want, You can then buy any stat increases or skill for each "Linemen" that you can afford. +ST MV AG AV costs $X gold and giving "Linemen" negative traits (like really stupid, Decay, -ST MV AG AV) gives you free gold to spend on that specific lineman (So you can turn a lineman into a big guy) You can use any model/skin you wish to represent each lineman(with exceptions need 5ST+ to use a big guy or 7+MV to use certain skins,etc) All teams have access to purchase any Apothecaries, Bribes they want. Skill: Initial players can be given any skills the coach wants, Then any skills you get from leveling up are decided by the Race/Species like normal. (You can't give mutation style skills to humans skinned players etc, But you can give "Horns/Prehensile tails" to players who actually have horns and a tail even if they cant get mutation style skills) And each skill it on it's own there is no longer "General/STR/AG/Mutation" skills there are just skills and each player/race specifically has access to there own set of skills. Setting up: I want to say, A Coach can field only 11 players on the field all willy-nilly on their own half of the field. But I think there has to be some limitations where you can place players (to stop and specific strategy dominating) Kick off: Weather Table and Kick off table are decided by the field your playing in, And in tournaments etc each player gets to choose there own "Home field" and what weather is like there and what kick off event is likely to happen (Seriously I've mentioned this in the thread already that I'm ok with weather been RNG because it makes the game diverse without making the gameplay RNG, Look for the post for more info) Picking up the Ball: Picking up the ball never fails inside own half, When a player is in opponents half you need 3+AG to pickup the ball(or Sure hands), Unless in a tackle zone or in a disturbing presence. If in a tackle zone a special block happens but the player picking up the ball uses his AG and the tackler uses his ST (and both players use and specific skills that help them) Picking up ball has equal AG as Tackling players ST, Ball player(guy picking up ball) can choose, "Pick up the ball but can't move" or "Start a normal block using ST and then pickup ball" If the Ball player has higher AG then the Tackling players ST, The ball player can choose "Pickup ball and continue normally" or "Pickup Ball and pass ignoring current tackle zone modifiers" If the tackler has more ST then the AG of ball player, Tackler can choose "let the player pickup then ball then Start a normal block action" or "Start a block action before the player picks up the ball" But "Nerves of steel" skill will bypass this special block completely. Except a ball cannot be picked up by an apposing player if disturbing presence is there. Blocking: There are so many ways to make blocking work this is just one of many. If both players have equal ST the AC can choose (without rolling) Push Back or Defender stumbles AND the DC can choose "Defend against Push back" or "Defend against Defender stumbles" If AC choose Push back and DC choose to "defend against Push back" nothing happens, If AC choose Defender stumbles and Defending coach chose "Defend against Defender stumbles" it becomes a both down. If AC has higher ST they can choose any option (But defender down can only be chosen if you have 3 or more ST) If AC has lower ST the DC can choose Attacker Pushed, Both down. And all skills come into play, Block effects Both Downs, Sidestep Grab effects Attacker/Defender Pushed. etc etc. Knock Down and Attrition: On any negative block (Pushed back Defender stumbles,Defender down, Both down) if the attacking player has double or more ST (including +1 from assistance) then the defenders AV the AC can choose to injure the player and have them sent off for this drive Serious lasting Injuries will only happen on a Knocked down and when a player has more 2 or more ST then the other players AV. In serious injuries AC can choose which body part to injure Head/Body/Arms/Feet But In Different parts of the body on players can have different AV's (You know the armor you can buy before games) -Helmet increases AV for Head only. -Chest piece increase body AV only -Pads (Arm/Leg pads) increase AV only for appendages (arms legs) -Boots and gloves, increase AV for Hands and feet only. Then if you injure a player its RNG which injury they get (I KNOW THE HORROR RNG!!! but there football players not surgeons you can choose to hurt someones leg but you can't choose how the a body will heal/sustain injuries) Head: Miss next game 60%,Niggling Injury 20% ,Really Stupid 20% , Dead 10% Body: Miss next game 60%, Niggling Injury 15%, -AV 25%, Dead 10% Hands/Feet: Miss next game 60%, Niggling Injury 15%, -MA or AG 25%(AC coach choice), 10% Lose a AG related skill (Sure feet,Sprint,Pass Ball,Catch etc) AC choice Arms/Legs: Miss next game 60%, Niggling Injury 15%, -ST 25%, 10% lose a ST related injury (Block,Stand firm,Break tackle,etc) AC choice Throwing the ball: A player can throw the ball perfectly depending on there AG 1 AG = 1blocks, So someone with 5 AG can throw a ball 5 blocks without fail. You can throw further then that but that adds risk. If a player with 5 AG throws a ball over 5 blocks the ball will RANDOMLY!! deviate from the intended square 1 block per block. (Throw a ball 1 block past your guaranteed zone it will randomly go 1 block, 2 blocks past your guaranteed zone it will randomly go 2 blocks etc) But it will never go behind the player more then 3 blocks (Ball will not randomly go more then 3 blocks closer to your endzone) Catching: If they have 3 or more AG they cannot fail a catch (or Catch skill), Unless in a tackle zone or disturbing presence, Been inside opponuents half of the field gives all players -1AG (only for the purposes of catching) If in a tackle zone it starts a special block action. Catching the ball has equal AG as Tackling players ST, The catcher can choose, "Catch the ball but can't move" or "Start a normal block using ST and then catch the ball" If the catcher has higher AG then the Tackling players ST, The catcher can choose "Catch the ball and continue normally" or "Catch the ball and pass ignoring current tackle zone modifiers" If the tackler has more ST then the AG of Catcher, Tackler can choose "Let the player Catch the ball then Start a normal block action" or "Start a block action before the player picks up the ball" But nerves of steel skill will completely bypass this special block action Except Disturbing presence makes ball unable to be caught. Interception: Starts a special block action If a Passing player has same AG as intercepting player the intercepting player can choose "The ball is intercepted but fumbled (meaning the ball is dropped near the interceptors feet)" or "The pass is treated as not safe(randomly spreads 1 block per block but in same general direction) after the point of interception" If the Passing player has more AG then the interceptor, The passing player Throws normally with -1AG If the passing player has less AG then the interceptor the interceptor chooses "Intercept the pass and hold the ball" or "Intercept the pass and throw the ball" Safe throw gives the throwing player +1AG for purposes of interception. Throw-ins: Depends on whos side it went out of bounds on, The apposing player gets to throw the ball in. It's like a 3AG throw (3 blocks perfectly then goes random each block past that by 1 block but keeping in same general direction) and both teams can make interception attempts assuming the thrower is 3 AG(Whoever is closest gets to go first) Dodging: Does a special ST vs AG block If moving player has same AG as tackling players ST then the Tackling coach can choose "Can only move half the distance left(You have 6 movement left this turn you can only move 3)" or "Start a normal block action" If the moving player has more AG then tackling players ST then the moving player continues as normal with -1MA If the Moving player less AG then the tackling players ST then the tackling player can choose "Start a normal block" or "Stop moving player moving" If a player has dodge they get a +1 AG for this special bloclk. If a moving player has Break tackle they use ST instead of AG for this special block. GFI: There is no more "GFI" you can move the spaces you can move and if you have things like sprint sure feet you can move more As for skills: I'm sure you can work out ways certain skills COULD work in certain situations I could list every skill and how they all work in every situation but that would take AGES and I'm sure if you use common sense you can think of a way it could work.
Instead of Human/Orc/Halfling/Orge/etc/etc teams have it so there are no teams.

The way I feel when i start a team it's like not my team like a human team is only allowed 1 Orge why? who says I can only have 1 Orge? What if i want a human team with 3 Orges why cant I do that? The "Orge" team has 6 Orges so it can't be against the rules, Am i just coaching someone else's team who wants a certain team?

It feels like I'm not making "My team" I'm customizing/training someone else's "Human Team"

Maybe I want a human team with some "Skinks" for ball runners (That I've stolen, took hostage, bought, any reason you want to why a skink will play for human team) or a Nurge Warrior at my front line or I want team full of "Big guys" or Treeman+Halfling ball catcher with Elf runners and catchers any combo of any characters.

I want to make my team my team.

May think "This defeats purpose of having races and the spirit of the game" but you can create systems to incentivize "Human teams" with humans only like if you only have "Human races" you get a bonus (1 extra Re-roll or faster leveling up because they work well together as an example)
Also systems that punish multi race teams like "Animosity" skill or "Extreme Animosity" for when you get something like humans and orcs on same team. (So coaches are strongly advised against teams like that but if they wish to do so because they have a plan they can)

Have a system where 1 Big guy=2 normal guys on the field so it's not just "16 Big guys vs 16 Normal guys" or Halflings=0.75 normal guys (maybe slightly bigger guys 1.25) I dunno the exsact numbers but a system that allows players to use any race any amount of "Big guys" or any type of guys. Only limited by the "Points each player takes up" and have a limit of points where big guys use more points weak guys use less points, You can make it more elaborate or flesh it out more but this concept would be really nice to allow players to make the team they want to make.

2nd suggestion:
Allow more customization of the team
Let (almost) any player have weapons(such as chainsaws and anyone who would fit on pogo stick) Like If i want a "Bloodthirster" with a chainsaw in my scrummage let me have it. (Losing a big guy because of secret weapon seems to balance itself out, Stronger the guy with chainsaw the more you lose) because if you gain the ability to use any race you don't need to play goblins to have a "weapon playstyle" (though you can still make systems that make it so goblins get more advantages when doing so, So players have incentive to use goblins if they want to use weapons)

And let any Player with horns/claws humanoid player (that could hold a knife) Get stab. (Dark elfs can have get some advantage to using stab to keep the uniqueness ) But I would assume there would be a increase in weapons there would need more balancing and countermeasures as well (Like a skill that makes you defend against weapons/stab or the inducement "I've got my eye on you" can test for weapons and potions making weapons risky)

Let players train out players negative skills, If you could level up a "Orge" and remove it's "Bone head" trait or Remove players "Animosity" (Which would be more prevalent with multiracial teams) or Remove a vampires blood lust. Because honestly I feel that is pretty far, Would you rather 1 STR point, Might blow or No bone head. (There all things you can spend 1 point on) it makes him weaker because you wasted a skill point but his now reliable. (Pro kinda covers this but it's super awkward and unnecessarily RNG) and it's not technically impossible (lore wise) to Teach/bride/convince a player to be smarter or less aggressive/wild and teach them compassion or they need to work over the animosity to win.

Speaking of negative skills i think a high roll on the injury table (66 fractured skull as example) should make a player gain the "Really stupid" skill would make it injury a little more dynamic. (It's no worse then losing 1 stat point) and if you roll a lose stat point injury(61-65) I think the coach should be able to decide which stat point since the coach would be telling the players which body part to aim for and gives coach's more control over the game (which is better then RNG for RNG's sake)

TL;DR More Customization.
Last edited by WWWilliam on 18 January 2014, 09:59, edited 3 times in total.

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dode74
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Re: Remove RNG dice rolls!

Postby dode74 » 09 January 2014, 14:15

You're playing the wrong game if you want fewer dice. This is an implementation of a board game with specific rules.
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Darkson
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Re: Remove RNG dice rolls!

Postby Darkson » 09 January 2014, 14:20

+1 to Dode.


If you tried the pick up as the first action, without making sure that if it did fail you'd protected it as much as possible then it's your poor coaching that's at fault, not the game.
Blood Bowl is about managing risk - if you don't then you will get burned.
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WWWilliam
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Re: Remove RNG dice rolls!

Postby WWWilliam » 09 January 2014, 15:33

You're playing the wrong game if you want fewer dice. This is an implementation of a board game with specific rules.
Bloodbowl board game has specific rules and Bloodbowl 1 is a good virtual copy of those rules. Whats your point?

I'm saying Bloodbowl 2 shouldn't be Bloodbowl 1(the board game )copy pasted with fancier graphics, If you want the board game rules play the board game or BloodBowl 1 there designed for it.

I want BloodBowl 2 to be a "Spiritual successor" to bloodbowl which changes things and innovates making the game less RNG for the sake of RNG and more competitive and customizable like most good modern games are (while sticking to the BloodBowl theme/spirit) but breaking free of the board games arbitrary limitations. (Because despite what you may think the board game rules aren't perfectly golden god crafted infallible rules that must never be broken or spend eternity in hell)

You didn't address any of my point so I guess you are just saying you want BloodBowl to never improve or change or innovate in anyway (Even to make a larger player base make it more competitive) and it MUST stay 100% true to the board game and never change? Because change is scary? If so then you can stick to bloodbowl 1 and the board game while I move onto the future with Blood bowl 2
If you tried the pick up as the first action, without making sure that if it did fail you'd protected it as much as possible then it's your poor coaching that's at fault, not the game.
Blood Bowl is about managing risk - if you don't then you will get burned.
I was wondering why my "Big Guy" kept dropping the ball even when using re-rolls..... But seriously I know how to play the game I'm not saying remove all risks and all dice rolls I'm saying remove unnecessary risks and unnecessary dice rolls that serve no purpose.
*Enemy team kicks ball* First thing a coach does is get a High AG Sure hands player to pick up the ball(which should be a viable strategy to play ball before bashing players), Is a really uncompetitive feature to have the player drop the ball and get turn over first thing just for getting unlucky, I don't see any reason for it at all.
It's RNG for RNG sake, and since it is part of the board game it's fine for bloodbowl 1 (since it's a copy of the board game, But remember the board game isn't a infallible godlike ruleset just because a really old BOARD game does it something doesn't make it the most competitive way to ever play a bloodbowl type 21st century VIDEO game) And for BloodBowl 2 I do not want a copy pasted Bloodbowl 1 with better graphics I want them to improve the rules and fix unnecessary risks and make the game more creative.

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dode74
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Re: Remove RNG dice rolls!

Postby dode74 » 09 January 2014, 15:49

That's just it: this version of Blood Bowl isn't a good virtual copy of the board game. There are hundreds of things they could do to make it much, much better as a virtual copy of the board game, from simple bugfixes to allowing customisation (rules and graphics) to adding the missing components (stars, cards, teams...).

Can Blood Bowl move away from the board game? I guess that is down to the licence holders. Should it? I don't think so, mainly because a lot of people play both the PC and the board version.

Have you tried Frozen Endzone? It might be more what you are after.
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Re: Remove RNG dice rolls!

Postby Darkson » 09 January 2014, 16:14

If you make a blood-bowl like game then I'm not interested. I want a (good) digital version of BB so I can play BB online - I don't want to play something "like" Blood Bowl.

And you say that you know how to play BB, then you talk about picking up the ball first. Again, risk management. If you want to do that, go ahead, but don't whine if it goes wrong.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.

WWWilliam
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Re: Remove RNG dice rolls!

Postby WWWilliam » 10 January 2014, 02:09

That's just it: this version of Blood Bowl isn't a good virtual copy of the board game. There are hundreds of things they could do to make it much, much better as a virtual copy of the board game, from simple bugfixes to allowing customisation (rules and graphics) to adding the missing components (stars, cards, teams...).

Can Blood Bowl move away from the board game? I guess that is down to the licence holders. Should it? I don't think so, mainly because a lot of people play both the PC and the board version.

Have you tried Frozen Endzone? It might be more what you are after.
Ok that's fair enough, I never played the board game so I just assumed Bloodbowl 1 was a virtual copy (Shouldn't be that hard to copy paste a rule book since you don't have to invent any new systems)

So Blood bowl 2 can be a perfect copy of the game with the arbitrary rolls(that I talked about in my first point) that's fine.

But point 2 and 3 still stand, If I'm playing a board game with a friend IRL we can do absolutely anything we want, We can Create any teams we want, We can create all "Big guy" teams, We can put any skill on any player, Give anyone a chainsaw, We can make players have maxed out stats with every skill on him, We can even use chess pieces if we want to.

But I don't want them to just say "Make teams fully maxed out anything you want" I want the game to be balanced but giving the players huge freedom (Just like you would IRL with board game league creators could allow players to give everyone stab skill irl or put vampires with there orges irl) Giving league host control over what is possible in that league (They can even choose what team limits they are and they may choose to use Bloodbowl 1 limitations for the human team who knows what they want to do) and outside of leagues just a 1v1 exhibition match I want to be easily able to create a custom team for fun

Maybe I want to play a quick game with friend both teams full all Big guys with chainsaws.(This wont happen in any normal league, Maybe in a "Big guy only league" or "Weapon heavy league") but it's fun thing to mess around with friends. Maybe there is a league where it's basically free for all(any team,any races,any skills) anything goes that would be a interesting league.

Give players freedom to create any team they want with any races they want and any skills they want, Then give league hosts freedom to adjust any of those rules. Then you can have the full board game experience.

As for frozen endzone it looks alright but there is no minotaurs from what I've seen, But riddle me this, If blood bowl 2 is a perfect representation of the board game (with all the freedom to create whatever we want like a irl board game) What do you want from Blood bowl 3? I would want blood bowl 3 to innovate and create a new Bloodbowl ruleset which is BETTER then the board game the board game isn't perfect, I can understand people wanting to board game in a virtual setting that's fine I'm A OK with that. But sooner or later Bloodbowl 3? BloodBowl4? BloodBlowl 13? Will have to innovate and improve the formula started by the board game. (I don't want bloodbowl to have a bunch of releases that just slightly get closer to the board game, I want the board game 100% with blood bowl 2, Then I want a improved video game version of the board game for 3+)
And you say that you know how to play BB, then you talk about picking up the ball first. Again, risk management. If you want to do that, go ahead, but don't whine if it goes wrong.
That is a tangent argument, I was explaing how unnecessarily risky ball play is, Bashy teams bash then play the ball last, Ball playing teams SHOULD be able to play the ball (as the least risky option) then bash anyone as necessary. But currently a lot of teams will Bash first then play ball (Because ball play is unnecessarily risky, Which is my point ball play SHOULDNT be so risky)

Let me put it this way.
Bashy team least risky thing to do is bash.
Ball passing team one of the most risky things to do is pickup and do small passes in your own half field with no enemies around. (< this should not be the case imo)

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dode74
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Re: Need more Creativity!

Postby dode74 » 10 January 2014, 06:33

Totally agree with the full freedom thing. I think it would solve a lot of issues.

Frozen Endzone: the skins are what matter to you? Does the gameplay appeal?

Bash vs Ball: true, a pass is risky, but it earns SPP every time. Blocking does not. Passing should carry a certain amount of risk. The balance seems to work though: bash is no more likely to win the game than ball.
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WWWilliam
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Re: Need more Creativity!

Postby WWWilliam » 10 January 2014, 07:46

Totally agree with the full freedom thing. I think it would solve a lot of issues.

Frozen Endzone: the skins are what matter to you? Does the gameplay appeal?

Bash vs Ball: true, a pass is risky, but it earns SPP every time. Blocking does not. Passing should carry a certain amount of risk. The balance seems to work though: bash is no more likely to win the game than ball.
We can agree on freedom, But Assuming bloodbowl 2 is a perfect copy of the board game with all the freedoms, What do you want Blood Bowl 3 to be? (because I would like it to build off the board game and break free of the shackles of the board game and innovate reducing RNG and increasing competitiveness and creation and playerbase)

Bash vs Ball, Yes passing earns you SPP but that only effects progression and has no effect on the gameplay in the actual game. (and 100% pointless in a exhibition match). Gameplay has priority over Progression, Problem is no matter the situation high AG and having the right skills and what not Playing the ball is almost always riskier and players just accept that as "This is how bloodbowl works" I don't accept that just because something is that way makes it the best way.

Seems like
Bash then play ball=Almost always best way play no matter what.
And
Play ball then Bash=Stupid risky behavior that should be avoided at all costs. (Which I see as a problem, Because this should be a equally viable tactic imo but since it's so risky it forces a certain playstyle: Bash then ball)

I don't see the reason for a roll on high AG and/or Skilled player to fail picking up ball or small passes/catches in own half of field with no enemies around ever.(regardless of how small a chance)

What does this risk accomplish? To force players to bash then play ball. Why do we need to limit gameplay choice for the sake of more RNG? (I get that it's bloodbowl rules and that's what players want but doesn't make it the best way to do things)

As for frozen endzone, Maybe you didn't notice the game has completely different game play, It has a planning phase where both players decide there actions then a action phase where the plans happen at once there is no turns, And as far as I can tell there is no classes or races just stick figures and there is obstacles on the field.
Even if it was minotaurs where just skins bloodbowl lore and characters gets me more immersed in the action then stick figures. So i would be 100% fine if bloodbowl 2 used Frozen endzones gameplay instead of "Live action"(horrible idea) or BloodBowl 3 used it as the main feature. I would still prefer a improved bloodbowl system though Aka The gameplay of bloodbowl but improved for video games, As I have to keep clarifying the board game rules are no where near infallible or perfect

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dode74
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Re: Need more Creativity!

Postby dode74 » 10 January 2014, 13:46

Define "perfect" in terms of a board game. I'm quite certain that there are adjustments which could be made which might appeal to one group or another, but "perfect" doesn't exsit.
Seems like
Bash then play ball=Almost always best way play no matter what.
And
Play ball then Bash=Stupid risky behavior that should be avoided at all costs. (Which I see as a problem, Because this should be a equally viable tactic imo but since it's so risky it forces a certain playstyle: Bash then ball)
Depends on the teams you play. Trying to bash with elven teams is fairly silly (higher risk than other strategies), so I wouldn't bother at all unless the right skillups came. Similarly, trying to play ball with Khemri is fairly silly. You change your tactics depending on your opposition. For example, I might choose to play fairly bashy with Dark Elves against Wood Elves, but play ball against Humans or Orcs.
I don't see the reason for a roll on high AG and/or Skilled player to fail picking up ball or small passes/catches in own half of field with no enemies around ever.
A fluff reason or a gameplay reason? The gameplay reason is simple enough: it works (i.e. the game is pretty well balanced and shifts in turnover-causing probabilities will likely change that). The fluff reason is that the ball is spikey, likely slick with blood, you have the opposition trying to kill you to get it and the crowd are baying for blood. IRL professional sportsmen screw up sometimes with far less pressure.
What does this risk accomplish? To force players to bash then play ball. Why do we need to limit gameplay choice for the sake of more RNG? (I get that it's bloodbowl rules and that's what players want but doesn't make it the best way to do things)
I think the risk accomplishes balance and changes matchup dynamics (high AG teams will want to ball, low AG teams will want to bash). Add a few level-ups (some doubles for guard/MB/PO on elves or a few +AG for bash teams) and all sorts of possibilities open themselves up.
As for frozen endzone, Maybe you didn't notice the game has completely different game play
I did - I play it (and enjoy it). The mechanic works and there is zero risk involved. There are no classes/races now, but there will be "stat differences" coming in later releases, which basically equates to classes and races. All that's missing (from your perspective) is the skins.

"Blood bowl optimised for PC" was done several years ago and was called Chaos League. It was also by Cyanide and the subsequent court case is what led to this game being made. I really enjoyed Chaos League tbh, but what I want to play when I pick up a box marked Blood Bowl is Blood Bowl.
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