Inducements

Share your ideas and Suggestions about Blood Bowl 2.
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TheSpydyr
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Re: Inducements

Postby TheSpydyr » 27 October 2015, 18:37

nope that makes perfect sense and I agree with you there. :D
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Jural
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Re: Inducements

Postby Jural » 27 October 2015, 19:22

At High TV (once you have your positionals, enough re-rolls, some depth, etc.) , there is a tangible benefit to having a 450k bank advantage, you can take more risks and one bad match doesn't necessarily destroy you. That argument doesn't really work at 1000 TV, however... Each team would be more efficient to use that bank towards tangible, on field results.

It may not be fair in an absolute on the field sense, but it's a clearly defined part of Blood Bowl at least, and a choice every coach makes to not just dump the money.

Valcurdra
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Re: Inducements

Postby Valcurdra » 30 October 2015, 11:31

Ok, I got a little angry before, sorry about that.

Took a break from the forum and I'm good to go now.

My opinion that the rule is better is based on the following veiws.

1. The old rule was confusing, awkward and slowed down the pre-match phase.

2. The old rule contained some inefficiency leading to minor imbalance. The prime examples were getting 40k in pettycash and not being able to buy anything, or getting 60-90k and only being able to buy a babe (excluding teams with loners in this bracket) which is significantly worse than the options at 100k. Under the new rule you can top up to 50/100k and have a more even match.

3. More inducments get taken and more interesting inducments get taken, increasing the amount of variety and fun in game.

4. Both teams have the option to add up to 150k in cash. This is fundamentally fair. The extreme examples people have posted are just examples of bad strategy. There is no excuse for entering a game with $0 in your treasury if the game offers you the option to do otherwise.

5. The extreme examples of a plus 150k advantage never happen in a real game. The reality is that people don't blow the whole treasury. This is because they know doing so will leave them extremely vulnerable in the next matchup, and make injuries harder to recover from.

6. Blood bowl has never been a perfectly balanced game. Overall it is a great game and very well balanced however it has some very rock, paper, scissors (perfect imbalance) scenarios. By allowing teams to top up with inducments you create a natural system for allowing players to rebalance certain matchups that are unfavorable due to race interactions.

7. I play the game regularly and have never lost/won as game due to abuse of this system. The vast mojority of the time people just top up to the nearest round number getting a 10-30k advantage which is trivial and no different to the old rule. In fact it's more balanced because the advantage naturally goes to the underdog in this scenario, unlike the old rule.

To sum up this is a very well thought out and elegant game design choice.

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Darkson
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Re: Inducements

Postby Darkson » 30 October 2015, 13:07

To sum up this is a very well thought out and elegant game design choice.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

No, no it's not.
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Potemkin_dk
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Re: Inducements

Postby Potemkin_dk » 30 October 2015, 13:19

Ok, I got a little angry before, sorry about that.

Took a break from the forum and I'm good to go now.

My opinion that the rule is better is based on the following veiws.

1. The old rule was confusing, awkward and slowed down the pre-match phase.
Maybe it will be a bit confusing and awkward the first couple of matches, and it wouldn't slow down the pre-match phase that much. All in all a non-issue
2. The old rule contained some inefficiency leading to minor imbalance. The prime examples were getting 40k in pettycash and not being able to buy anything, or getting 60-90k and only being able to buy a babe (excluding teams with loners in this bracket) which is significantly worse than the options at 100k. Under the new rule you can top up to 50/100k and have a more even match.
If coaches only could spend 20-30K from their free cash then I doubt people would say it was broken.
3. More inducments get taken and more interesting inducments get taken, increasing the amount of variety and fun in game.
Inducements that makes the match more unfair TV-wise are not fun.
4. Both teams have the option to add up to 150k in cash. This is fundamentally fair. The extreme examples people have posted are just examples of bad strategy. There is no excuse for entering a game with $0 in your treasury if the game offers you the option to do otherwise.
There are many reasons to have less than 150K.. Why coaches might have less than 150K shouldn't affect the match.
5. The extreme examples of a plus 150k advantage never happen in a real game. The reality is that people don't blow the whole treasury. This is because they know doing so will leave them extremely vulnerable in the next matchup, and make injuries harder to recover from.
It doesn't matter how often coaches gain an 150TV advantage, the problem is that they can gain an 150TV advantage.
Happened to me in the last round of a round robin and I had to buy inducements first. We both had to win to advance.
6. Blood bowl has never been a perfectly balanced game. Overall it is a great game and very well balanced however it has some very rock, paper, scissors (perfect imbalance) scenarios. By allowing teams to top up with inducments you create a natural system for allowing players to rebalance certain matchups that are unfavorable due to race interactions.
If it allows coaches to re-balance match-ups that are unfavorable, it also allows coaches to make match-ups that are favorable even more unbalanced.
7. I play the game regularly and have never lost/won as game due to abuse of this system. The vast mojority of the time people just top up to the nearest round number getting a 10-30k advantage which is trivial and no different to the old rule. In fact it's more balanced because the advantage naturally goes to the underdog in this scenario, unlike the old rule.
It doesn't matter how often it happen.. the problem is that it can happen.
The advantage does not go to the underdog, it goes to whoever has more free cash to spend and/or whoever buys inducements last.. unlike the old rule where who had cash to spend didn't matter and the underdog always bought last.

To sum up this is a very well thought out and elegant game design choice.
Sadly it is not well thought out, or there wouldn't be a possibility for a team to gain an unfair advantage in a match.
I would call it broken and lazy game design.

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Darkson
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Re: Inducements

Postby Darkson » 30 October 2015, 13:51

If they're going to use a system that allows (and encourages) unbalanced match-ups then they might as well have saved themselves some time and dropped inducements entirely and gone back to the old bonus MVP route.

As it is, it's either them at best not understanding the problem they've made, at worst being totally incompetent.
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dode74
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Re: Inducements

Postby dode74 » 30 October 2015, 14:19

1. The old rule was confusing, awkward and slowed down the pre-match phase.
So it's made imbalanced in the name of speed of game when they put in a pile of cutscenes etc? Makes no sense. Besides, it's not the old Petty Cash rule which this rule is being compared with, but either Plasmoid's or the BBRC's Bank rule.
2. The old rule contained some inefficiency leading to minor imbalance. The prime examples were getting 40k in pettycash and not being able to buy anything, or getting 60-90k and only being able to buy a babe (excluding teams with loners in this bracket) which is significantly worse than the options at 100k. Under the new rule you can top up to 50/100k and have a more even match.
As you can with any of the new bank rules, but the others don't create the imbalance.
3. More inducments get taken and more interesting inducments get taken, increasing the amount of variety and fun in game.
Yes, see 2 above.
4. Both teams have the option to add up to 150k in cash. This is fundamentally fair. The extreme examples people have posted are just examples of bad strategy. There is no excuse for entering a game with $0 in your treasury if the game offers you the option to do otherwise.
Nonsense. People lose players and need to replace them, and teams which lose players more often will need to replace them more often. It is fundamentally unbalanced on that basis. Then there is the fact that the second team ALWAYS has the advantage of knowing what the first team has done.
5. The extreme examples of a plus 150k advantage never happen in a real game. The reality is that people don't blow the whole treasury. This is because they know doing so will leave them extremely vulnerable in the next matchup, and make injuries harder to recover from.
"It'll never happen" is poor design.
6. Blood bowl has never been a perfectly balanced game. Overall it is a great game and very well balanced however it has some very rock, paper, scissors (perfect imbalance) scenarios. By allowing teams to top up with inducments you create a natural system for allowing players to rebalance certain matchups that are unfavorable due to race interactions.
See 2 above.
7. I play the game regularly and have never lost/won as game due to abuse of this system. The vast mojority of the time people just top up to the nearest round number getting a 10-30k advantage which is trivial and no different to the old rule. In fact it's more balanced because the advantage naturally goes to the underdog in this scenario, unlike the old rule.
The advantage does not go to the underdog. It goes to the overdog because he gets to choose second.
To sum up this is a very well thought out and elegant game design choice.
No, it's an abortion of a rule Cyanide have misunderstood and misapplied. It could have been a well thought out and elegant game design choice, but this isn't it.
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si1foo
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Re: Inducements

Postby si1foo » 31 October 2015, 08:27

if we are going to be argueing over balance in bloodbowl the only team i have ever felt as imbalanced is bretonians i have gone over them repeatedly and they suck goblins are better then them

but the reason people see more of the imbalanced side of bloodbowl is because the ladder has been going on for how long now and higher armor teams survive easier then weaker ones like elves i would love to see some out of game change to spend money and remove negative effects from players and having it price more for teams like chaos orcs and lizardmen but a little bit less for elves and skaven kinda like 200k for high armor teams and like 150k for elves

vernonezzell
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Re: Inducements

Postby vernonezzell » 01 November 2015, 20:52

Unfortunately, xbox one doesn't have the patch. Looks like it going to die out like previous version, (but very understandable why the 360 one died it wasn't even a game.)

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Breidr
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Re: Inducements

Postby Breidr » 02 November 2015, 18:31

According to the updated rules PDF the higher value team now picks inducements first. If all went well the underdog should now get his proper petty cash value.

I have not tested this yet.


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