[Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

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Obsidian
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[Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Obsidian » 21 February 2017, 08:24

Hi,

a player in my league found a bug with Hypnotic gaze that I have been able to reproduce : if the player with the ability is down, then he can use hypnotic gaze before getting up. then its move is finished and he stays down.

I took it in video : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/123663208


I read the LRB6, nothing said that the player must be on his feet to use the ability. But IMO, it is implicit ^^

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Sid The Coach
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Sid The Coach » 21 February 2017, 08:34

This has been brought up several times already, consider it to be a feature of BB2 (definitely not a bug).
Like it or not, but the general consensus is: since nothing explicitly disallows Hypnotic Gaze usage while being Prone, you can do it.

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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 21 February 2017, 09:16

Yeah, not a bug. Not explicit in the rules either way, so you could consider it either allowed or not, and discussion on TFF is equivocal.
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Darkson
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Darkson » 21 February 2017, 09:50

It's not a bug, nor is it a "feature" of BB2, it's a genuine "grey" area of the rules - depending on which part of the rules has precedence (p.11 says a player may do nothing before standing up; p.23 says Extraordinary skills [i.e. Hypnotic Gaze] may be used whilst prone). Even Galak, the gent that re-wrote most of the rules for GW isn't 100% sure either way. There was a big discussion about this on TFF (which I now can't find).

Seems that Cyanide have gone the "p.23 takes precedence" route, which is the one I'd use.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Focus_GuillaumeQA
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Focus_GuillaumeQA » 21 February 2017, 10:14

Nothing is set to stone at this point, it was not a big deal before the Vampire team but now we can discuss it.
Personally, I find the behavior of the skill pretty strange from a "realistic" viewpoint, but gameplay-wise I don't think Vampires need a nerf.

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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Darkson » 21 February 2017, 10:36

Focus_GuillaumeQA wrote:but gameplay-wise I don't think Vampires need a nerf.

This. They're already a "sucky" team (sorry :oops: ) and it's not like using this grey area makes them "too good".
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Sid The Coach
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Sid The Coach » 21 February 2017, 11:14

All the discussion derives from those p.23 skills use rules:
Unless otherwise stated in the skill description, the following rules apply to all skills:
...
6. Only Extraordinary skills work when a player is Prone or Stunned.

Hypnotic Gaze is the only other active skill in the Extraordinary (apart from Bombardier) which doesn't explicitly require the player to be standing in the first place, so it's quite peculiar to see how the skill description for Bombardier begins with:
Bombardier (Extraordinary)
A coach may choose to have a Bombardier who is not Prone or Stunned throw a bomb instead of taking any other Action with the player...

Standing up is not an action itself but can be done "at the beginning of an Action", which also can be zero squares Move.
But since Bombardier skill already includes "instead of taking any other Action", I find the remark "who is not Prone or Stunned" to be excessive there. But still it was added for some reason...

Now let's go back to Hypnotic Gaze:
The player may use hypnotic gaze at the end of his Move Action on one opposing player who is in an adjacent square.

So the real question is: "Can you Move while being Prone?"

In my understanding the answer is "No", and the player needs to stand up first in order to be able to make even zero squares Move.
Which leads up to the conclusion that one shouldn't be able to use Hypnotic Gaze while being Prone.
But that's only my opinion on the matter.

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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 21 February 2017, 11:27

Standing up is not an action itself but can be done "at the beginning of an Action", which also can be zero squares Move.
Standing up takes 3 squares of MA. That means to stand up would require an action which allows movement (e.g. a Move Action). Since he cannot take any other Action on order to use the Bombardier skill the clarification has a purpose.
So the real question is: "Can you Move while being Prone?"
No, the question is "can you stay prone while taking a Move Action". Since a Move Action can involve 0 squares of movement (e.g. for rolling to remove bonehead to get TZs back) then we know you don't actually have to move to take a Move Action.
So can you be prone and take a Move Action? Well, it doesn't specify that a prone player cannot take a Move Action (as opposed to a Block Action, which specifies it cannot be carried out by a Prone Player), so why not?
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Obsidian » 21 February 2017, 11:57

thanks for all your answers. I made a search on "hypnotic" keyword but didn't found anything (maybe I made it wrong way).

If that's kept... I have to think about giving this skill to my treemen :P
(yeah.. there is a joke inside)

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Sid The Coach
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Sid The Coach » 21 February 2017, 12:09

dode74 wrote:
So the real question is: "Can you Move while being Prone?"
No, the question is "can you stay prone while taking a Move Action". Since a Move Action can involve 0 squares of movement (e.g. for rolling to remove bonehead to get TZs back) then we know you don't actually have to move to take a Move Action.
So can you be prone and take a Move Action? Well, it doesn't specify that a prone player cannot take a Move Action (as opposed to a Block Action, which specifies it cannot be carried out by a Prone Player), so why not?


Currently you don't have the option to Activate the player (i.e. roll for Bone-head, etc.) while being prone. You only can stand the player up (which will include the automatic roll).

So it's safe to imply that currently "zero squares movement" while being prone is not implemented in BB2 (intentionally or not - we don't know). And for the matter of consistency, one still shouldn't be able to use Hypnotic Gaze without standing up in BB2 as well. ;)


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