[Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Share your ideas and Suggestions about Blood Bowl 2.
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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 21 February 2017, 12:26

Currently you don't have the option to Activate the player (i.e. roll for Bone-head, etc.) while being prone. You only can stand the player up (which will include the automatic roll).
Are you able to give me an example as to why you would want to ever activate a (non-hypnogaze) prone player while leaving him prone? I'm simply asking whether that ability adds anything and should be implemented as opposed to whether having it adds nothing at all and not bothering with it is reasonable.
So it's safe to imply that currently "zero squares movement" while being prone is not implemented in BB2 (intentionally or not - we don't know). And for the matter of consistency, one still shouldn't be able to use Hypnotic Gaze without standing up in BB2 as well. ;)
If there is a need to activate a prone player as above then I would argue that should be implemented rather than restricting Hypno. If there is no need to activate and Hypno is the only reason you would want to make a Move Action with a player who remains prone then not being able to do so on other occasions is not an argument for limiting a skill.
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Miraskadu
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Miraskadu » 21 February 2017, 13:40

The only argument I could come up to activate a prone player and not stand him up, would be to burn a roll. But that is doing literally nothing. ;)

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Sid The Coach
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Sid The Coach » 21 February 2017, 13:56

So can you be prone and take a Move Action? Well, it doesn't specify that a prone player cannot take a Move Action (as opposed to a Block Action, which specifies it cannot be carried out by a Prone Player), so why not?
Why not? Well, for someone who values wording more than common sense and logic there's probably no reason not to justify movement while being prone.

But here's what: today you use this argument to make Hypnotic Gaze while being prone legit, tomorrow you introduce crawling to BB!
Cause why not: if I can make 0 movement and stay prone, why not make full MA movement and still stay prone? In some situations it's even better than normal movement - you have to spend 3 MA to stand up, but it "doesn't specify" (c) you can't use your full MA to move while prone, right? Next level BB...

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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 21 February 2017, 14:09

for someone who values wording more than common sense and logic
And I give you the interception rules :)
I can certainly see a prone vamp looking up at a player and hypnotising him from the ground, for example.
if I can make 0 movement and stay prone, why not make full MA movement and still stay prone?
Because CRP page 11 states he may do nothing before standing up. The entire crux of this discussion is whether that page takes precedence over CRP page 23 which states Extraordinary skills work when a player is prone or stunned.
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Sid The Coach
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Sid The Coach » 21 February 2017, 14:21

So it does specify that you can't make an Action before you stand up from prone after all, right? So you can't make any Move action, be it 0 movement or full, while prone? Glad that we agree on that.

Ok, p.11 will give the first quote we need:
While Prone, the player loses his tackle zones and may do nothing before standing up at a cost of three squares of his movement when he next takes an Action.
Next one will be that p.23:
Unless otherwise stated in the skill description, the following rules apply to all skills:
...
6. Only Extraordinary skills work when a player is Prone or Stunned.
And the last one will be Hypnotic Gaze skill description, p. 65:
The player may use hypnotic gaze at the end of his Move Action on one opposing player who is in an adjacent square.
So, in order to use Hypnotic Gaze the player has to make a Move action first, and in order to make a Move action he needs to stand up. And p.23 is overruled by the skill description.
Thus you can't use Hypnotic Gaze while being prone and not stand up.

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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 21 February 2017, 14:54

p.23 is overruled by the skill description.
Well that's the basis of the question. Does 23 take precedence or does 11? Both interpretations are quite reasonable.
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Darkson » 21 February 2017, 16:46

Well done Sid, you've just taken a page to rehash the exact arguement that has already been had (p.11 vs p.23).
I'm glad you're so such that your interpretation is right - unfortunately for you, even the person behind the rules isn't so such, and has said, as Dode has, that both interpretations have merit.

In counter point - why do I have to roll Bonehead, Really Stupid etc before I stand up? If I declare a Move action with a prone vampire I have to roll for Blood Lust? Why? Using p.11 I shouldn't have to until I've stood up. Because the skills say so, and skills can and do override basic rules.

So it's already shown skills can override p.11.

If I make a 0 move with a prone Vamp (with Blood Lust remember) then have I take a Move action? Yes. Hypno Gaze is an Extraordinary skill, so p.23 allows me to use it prone? Yes. Have I fulfilled the conditions in the Gaze skill itself (end of a Move action)? Yes. So I can use Gaze while prone.

So it comes down to what takes precedence - p.11 or p.23. You say p.11. I say p.23. Coaches areon both sides. And the guy that wrote (or re-wrote) the rules has said it's a grey area and that both interpretations are correct RAW.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Darkson
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Darkson » 21 February 2017, 16:59

and in order to make a Move action he needs to stand up.
No. Because if you need to stand up to make a Move action you need to get 3MA from "somewhere" before the Move action.
You don't stand up then Move - you Move so you can stand up.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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TalkFantasyFootball admin - PM me if you need help.
Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.

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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Obsidian » 21 February 2017, 19:19

I thought the point closed but...

Ok, just a question about p65 : it's written " at the end of his Move Action". For me, it means there IS a move action.
and to make a move action (even for 0 square), you have to get up.

I am definitely not a LRB6 specialist ;)
I am just trying to help.

But, I admit, I found illogical to be able to use such a skill while prone. for me, it's an "active" skill contrary to "really stupid" or "bone head" for example that are "passive" ones.

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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 21 February 2017, 19:27

to make a move action (even for 0 square), you have to get up.
No, you don't.
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