[Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

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Miraskadu
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Miraskadu » 21 February 2017, 20:00

Ok, just a question about p65 : it's written " at the end of his Move Action". For me, it means there IS a move action.
and to make a move action (even for 0 square), you have to get up.
Just to elaborate the 0 square 0 movement action.

I choose my downed player, declare a move action, spend my first 3 move points on getting up, and can keep moving the reminder of the players movement points.
I can stop a move action at any point without spending movement points.

The same calculation can be done with a player already standing. If the vamp is standing next to a player, I activate and can use hypno gaze on him. That player hasn't done a move action either and is considered to be at the end of his move action. Same ordeal, player got activated, player could have spend movement points decided not to and used hypno gaze.

Phage
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Phage » 22 February 2017, 02:00

The problem is that BB2 does not show when a player is activated regardless of how many moves it makes. For example if I click on my vamp and use hypnotic gaze the game assumes I am making zero moves. But the converse, clicking on a player and doing nothing does not activate them (red circle) allowing me to come back to that player. Either clicking on a player must entail activation (I doubt anyone would want this) or we need a new option in the pop up called "activate" so that it is that zero moves will be used.

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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 22 February 2017, 07:18

we need a new option in the pop up called "activate" so that it is that zero moves will be used.
Other than in order to use Hypno, to what end to we need this?
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Obsidian
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Obsidian » 22 February 2017, 08:42

we need a new option in the pop up called "activate" so that it is that zero moves will be used.
Other than in order to use Hypno, to what end to we need this?
Agree with dode on this.
If it's only for hypno gaze, then just "force" it in the skill use : if the palyer is prone and want to use hypno gaze directly, then get up, use it, and terminate the move action automatically ^^

to make a move action (even for 0 square), you have to get up.
No, you don't.
I always like when people are so conclusive.. That's so constructive !
Any example where you can make a move action with a player not on his feet ?

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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Obsidian » 22 February 2017, 09:13

For information, I looked at NAF and TFF forums to find an answer ( we were certainly not the first to ask the question) and the summarized answer is (for what I understood) : grey part of the rule. It could be done but it shouldn't.

Which mean : Focus_GuillaumeQA, it's up to you dude ! :)


For those who want to check, here are my sources :
http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 24&t=41144
http://www.thenaf.net/blood-bowl/rules/ ... ent-121988

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Darkson
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Darkson » 22 February 2017, 09:53

Any example where you can make a move action with a player not on his feet ?
Everytime you make a Move Action* with a prone player - (TT rules, I don't know if Cyanide got it right or not) if you want to stand a player up you declare the action while they're still laying down - you don't stand up then declare.


* Or Blitz, Foul or Pass.
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Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.

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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 22 February 2017, 10:00

to make a move action (even for 0 square), you have to get up.
No, you don't.
I always like when people are so conclusive.. That's so constructive !
Any example where you can make a move action with a player not on his feet ?
When he's not moving: a 0 move Move Action. Take Root is a good example of this: a prone tree still rolls for take root before moving, and will need to roll to stand up if he is prone; alternatively, he can choose to stay on the floor and take a 0 move action if he is rooted. Why? In order to prevent being CPOMBed by the player next to him which he could have used BT to get away from (or could have blitzed away), for example.
There are some things in this discussion which are not clear: this is not one of them.
For information, I looked at NAF and TFF forums to find an answer ( we were certainly not the first to ask the question)
Yes, we, including Guillaume, have read these before. Your link to Eldin's answer is just one interpretation, as are all the others. No idea where you get the "but shouldn't" from: that sounds like your interpretation.

I think part of what is being potentially misinterpreted is that there is a difference between declaring an Action and taking an Action. You can declare a Move Action, do 0 move with it (i.e. do nothing) and then that action is over and that works in accordance with page 11 since you have done nothing ("may do nothing" is the wording from page 11). You then use Hypno in accordance with page 23 (or roll for Bonehead etc then do 0 move with it). With Bonehead, for example, you can declare the Action, roll for Bonehead, then do the Action (which might be a 0 move action of staying prone). Take Root is a good example of this, as mentioned above.
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Obsidian » 22 February 2017, 11:19

Yes, we, including Guillaume, have read these before. Your link to Eldin's answer is just one interpretation, as are all the others. No idea where you get the "but shouldn't" from: that sounds like your interpretation.
I took the words from sann0638 : "I'm taking vampires this weekend and won't be trying to gaze from prone. Nor will I be rolling to block with a fanatic before doing the required GFI, but both are the case by the letter of the law." + "Time for a new rulebook..."

And here, I would say that we are all in interpretation. so, yes, that's mine. And what I understand in these words is "that's what's written, not wanted".


Regarding the take root, I never heard anyone saying that he can roll the take root dice then decide if he will or not get up the treeman... But indeed, according to the rules, I understand the way you see it.

IMO, that's definitely not the spirit of the rule, which is for me : you declare the action, then you do it. The consequence of doing the action is "immediatly roll the take root". If you don't do anything, then you don't have to test the take root. So, if you test TR, it means you do something, even if it's just trying to get up.

Things are a bit different for HG, nothing force you to roll anything before using HG. BUT, my logic tells me that the player must not be prone to use it. Yeah, Interpretation again, I know ;)

Well, regarding HG, as said previously (and as you Dode said too), that's question of interpretation. Mine is "player must be on his feet to use it". I am ok if you think that's not exactly what's written (again question of prevalence of the page A against page B). but as a player, I won't use it ^^

Regarding the game, it's up to Guillaume (and also you in any way I guess) to decide. Just wanted to raise the opinion of the president of the NAF on this subject.



@Darkson : I said made, not declare. I know I am not that good in English but as fara as I can, I try to take care :)

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dode74
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby dode74 » 22 February 2017, 11:34

that's definitely not the spirit of the rule, which is for me : you declare the action, then you do it
Here I disagree entirely and the rulebook backs me up. If I declare a Block Action I do not have to carry out a block; if I declare a Move Action I do not have to move any squares; if I declare a Pass Action I do not have to throw the ball; if I declare a Blitz Action I do not have to either move or block; and so on. All of the Action descriptions on LRB6 page 7 specifically state "may" not "must". A good example is using a Blitz Action to only move (not block with) a player with Wild Animal.
The consequence of doing the action is "immediatly roll the take root".
No: it specifically says "after declaring an Action" not "doing an action". They are not the same thing.
If you don't do anything, then you don't have to test the take root. So, if you test TR, it means you do something, even if it's just trying to get up.
The first sentence I agree with: if no Action is declared then no TR roll is made. Similarly, you must make the TR roll if an Action is declared. That said, just because you have declared an Action does not mean you have to act: as above, all actions are "may" not "must".
my logic tells me that the player must not be prone to use it
Based on what? There's nothing in the rules preventing it apart from the dissonance between page 11 and page 23, and that's the bit which requires interpretation.
Just wanted to raise the opinion of the president of the NAF on this subject.
That's his choice and has no bearing on anyone. I prefer the interpretation of the people who wrote the rules themselves, because they alone know the intent. They say it is ambiguous.
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Darkson
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Re: [Bug] hypnotic gaze can be use before a player get up.

Postby Darkson » 22 February 2017, 12:15

And in the quote of the NAF president you posted he says " the case by the letter of the law", so with you agreeing with him you're saying you know your interpretation is wrong, but you'll use it anyway.

I should also point out that Sann doesn't see himself as some rules guru, and indeed it's not part of the NAF presidents role, and he has and does change his views and the FAQs based on the gents that wrote the rules.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.


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