Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Share your ideas and Suggestions about Blood Bowl 2.
Miraskadu
Posts: 231
Joined: 08 March 2016, 03:05

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby Miraskadu » 28 March 2017, 12:14

Sorry, but this is an exceedingly weak argument. The weaker players in a league can go games without scoring a single td. Letting them have a chance to harvest some spp will help them aquire essential skills. Besides, even the weakest players should be able to beat the AI by two, while the best will only win by three or four on average. This will definitely help the weak players more than the good ones.
So you want to use the AI teams as a counterbalance for the weak player to gain some team development? A skilled player will haverst even more spp from an AI team then the weaker player. So he will develope his team even further.

And maybe it will help to push the weak player to get those sweet level 2 players with their first skill up.

Let's say you take 2 Lizardteams one with a weak coach one with a good coach. Let say both are able to score 2 TD and win the game against the AI. The weak player will more than likely score with the skinks, since that is what they are there for. The strong player scores with one a 2 saurus instead. Both get the same amount of spp, which is valued more?

The issue is not only that the strong player might get more spp than the weak player he might get them on players that are really hard to gain spp on.

And if those AI teams are not in the league to be able to rank up spp, what then, other the intended use to use them as space holder for bye weeks? To make the weak player have a hand me down win, o look at least you are better than the AI?

SaintTodd
Posts: 48
Joined: 20 October 2015, 23:26

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby SaintTodd » 28 March 2017, 15:58

Hahahahahahaha
Ok. Funny read at least.

Rifugio
Posts: 35
Joined: 08 October 2012, 14:58

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby Rifugio » 28 March 2017, 16:24

I think the main point here is - if you don't find playing against the AI rewarding and fun then this game mode is not going to appeal. If there is a great disparity between coaches then I don't think the Pro coaches would necessarily have a great time. But new starter players likely will.

I'm not a great Blood Bowl coach, I've been playing the AI for years and it still sometimes gets the better of me. But, I enjoy the game and have a laugh in between gnashing my teeth. I'm hoping that adding some AI teams will allow myself and a small number of friends to be able to enjoy some of the single player type leagues, and share a few stories. The majority of the teams will be AI and so most of the games players will end up playing against AI. I don't see that as a farming exercise, as I enjoy playing single player.

Its very difficult for me to find the time to play in a multiplayer BB tournament, partly due to scheduling, and I don't think I'd necessarily enjoy spending the entire tournament being hammered by random strangers. The matches versus AI will be fillers, in comparison with player versus player matches, but as at least 3 of my mates have very little BB experience, if the Devs actually implement a decent version of mixed AI leagues - they will have another 3 sales and we will likely have a great time.

Consider the alternative of playing a league with those same 3 friends and no AI. It gets tedious very quickly, as we found out when we tried with Blood Bowl 1...

SaintTodd
Posts: 48
Joined: 20 October 2015, 23:26

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby SaintTodd » 28 March 2017, 21:35

I think the main point here is - if you don't find playing against the AI rewarding and fun then this game mode is not going to appeal. If there is a great disparity between coaches then I don't think the Pro coaches would necessarily have a great time. But new starter players likely will.

I'm not a great Blood Bowl coach, I've been playing the AI for years and it still sometimes gets the better of me. But, I enjoy the game and have a laugh in between gnashing my teeth. I'm hoping that adding some AI teams will allow myself and a small number of friends to be able to enjoy some of the single player type leagues, and share a few stories. The majority of the teams will be AI and so most of the games players will end up playing against AI. I don't see that as a farming exercise, as I enjoy playing single player.

Its very difficult for me to find the time to play in a multiplayer BB tournament, partly due to scheduling, and I don't think I'd necessarily enjoy spending the entire tournament being hammered by random strangers. The matches versus AI will be fillers, in comparison with player versus player matches, but as at least 3 of my mates have very little BB experience, if the Devs actually implement a decent version of mixed AI leagues - they will have another 3 sales and we will likely have a great time.

Consider the alternative of playing a league with those same 3 friends and no AI. It gets tedious very quickly, as we found out when we tried with Blood Bowl 1...
Thanks for taking the time to explain your position, something I simply don't have the patience to do, as it seems obvious to me. There's a reason this has been one of the most requested features, I still don't fully understand why it's difficult for some to grasp that multiplayer leagues are a daunting experience to newer players, and why hybrid sp/mp leagues are a nice bridge. Maybe your post will help them to understand.

Miraskadu
Posts: 231
Joined: 08 March 2016, 03:05

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby Miraskadu » 29 March 2017, 06:44

I think the main point here is - if you don't find playing against the AI rewarding and fun then this game mode is not going to appeal. If there is a great disparity between coaches then I don't think the Pro coaches would necessarily have a great time. But new starter players likely will.

I'm not a great Blood Bowl coach, I've been playing the AI for years and it still sometimes gets the better of me. But, I enjoy the game and have a laugh in between gnashing my teeth. I'm hoping that adding some AI teams will allow myself and a small number of friends to be able to enjoy some of the single player type leagues, and share a few stories. The majority of the teams will be AI and so most of the games players will end up playing against AI. I don't see that as a farming exercise, as I enjoy playing single player.

Its very difficult for me to find the time to play in a multiplayer BB tournament, partly due to scheduling, and I don't think I'd necessarily enjoy spending the entire tournament being hammered by random strangers. The matches versus AI will be fillers, in comparison with player versus player matches, but as at least 3 of my mates have very little BB experience, if the Devs actually implement a decent version of mixed AI leagues - they will have another 3 sales and we will likely have a great time.

Consider the alternative of playing a league with those same 3 friends and no AI. It gets tedious very quickly, as we found out when we tried with Blood Bowl 1...
Thanks for taking the time to explain your position, something I simply don't have the patience to do, as it seems obvious to me. There's a reason this has been one of the most requested features, I still don't fully understand why it's difficult for some to grasp that multiplayer leagues are a daunting experience to newer players, and why hybrid sp/mp leagues are a nice bridge. Maybe your post will help them to understand.

Yes, it helps to understand his position, which is one different from the position you, SaintTodd, took and which I argued against. ;)

I have no issue with people including AI teams in Multiplayer leagues to fill up the roster, or bolster up a league between three or four friends but you want to play a best of 18 or something along those lines. I still think the AI is not good enough for that job, but if people have fun playing against the AI, who am I to judge and disagree in which way they play the game, when is doesn't affect me.


The argument that AI games help the weaker player to gain team development in a league with mixed coach skill levels is bullocks. And that was all I was pointing out in the first post. Since your statement was that this would be one of the advantages of including AI into multiplayer leagues.

And at Rifugio have a look into the Rookie league of the ReBBL, it is geared towards newer coaches. If you are interested ;).

SaintTodd
Posts: 48
Joined: 20 October 2015, 23:26

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby SaintTodd » 29 March 2017, 12:45



Yes, it helps to understand his position, which is one different from the position you, SaintTodd, took and which I argued against. ;)
Umm no. My original point was that new players who join leagues tend to lose alot, and that playing some games against AI opponents will give a chance to break up the frustration that goes with losing all the time.
Then, I disagreed with your assessment that this will help experienced players more. And I still disagree. Your argument has been weak. Simple as that.

Miraskadu
Posts: 231
Joined: 08 March 2016, 03:05

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby Miraskadu » 29 March 2017, 13:14

Umm no. My original point was that new players who join leagues tend to lose alot, and that playing some games against AI opponents will give a chance to break up the frustration that goes with losing all the time.
So you want to use the AI included in the competition as consolation win for the weaker player? Don't know how much that would help with the frustration of new players. But sure, we can hand some participation trophies as well. But sure if you think that will help with the frustration and not exaggerate it even more. "It works vs the AI, why does it not work vs human players, god damn it."
Then, I disagreed with your assessment that this will help experienced players more. And I still disagree. Your argument has been weak. Simple as that.
My argument is and was that experienced players will farm the AI team more, hence increase the unbalance between their teams and the teams of newer players.
The weaker players in a league can go games without scoring a single td. Letting them have a chance to harvest some spp will help them aquire essential skills. Besides, even the weakest players should be able to beat the AI by two, while the best will only win by three or four on average
So above your example from your assumption the decent coach would still get about 3 to 6 spp more than a new coach. So still getting more team development than the new coaches.

The major issue, which I explained above as well is not that the experienced coach will just get more spp in total, but also farm the AI to get spp on positionals that in a normal game won't see so many. TD with any STR4 player, vanity passes etc, the list is long on how you can milk an incompetent opponent.

So where is the difference for spp gain between an experienced coach playing a new one and winning the game 2-0 (your numbers), vs both playing the AI and the new caoch winning 2-0 and the experienced 4-0?
First game the EXPcoach got 11 spp and the NEWcoach 5 spp (not counting cas, but I would argue that an experienced coach should get more blocks in and hence cause more cas on average).
Second set of games EXPcoach 17 spp and the NEWcoach 11 spp.

League balance is not about getting maybe that one or two skills in, it is about teams developing at a simliar rate. With AI teams the rate with which the experienced coach can develop his team or rebuild new players is even higher than without AI teams.

Simple as that. ^^

So if my argument is weak, it should be easy to disprove what I said here.


EDIT: And if you haven't noticed I am not against AI teams in multiplayer leagues, it will just not do what you are hoping it to do.

Rifugio
Posts: 35
Joined: 08 October 2012, 14:58

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby Rifugio » 29 March 2017, 17:19

Sounds like swings and roundabouts to me, but I agree that playing a game where you are constantly losing and falling further and further behind is not exactly fun. Blood Bowl consistently rewards the winners, so maybe it will slightly spiral the difference; however that difference will always exist and gets progressively more significant as time goes on.

What do you think of some of the suggestions in my earlier post? For example being able choose from the single player league types with more experienced AI teams, and being able to turn player teams into AI teams (either permanently if they drop out, or temporarily for holidays etc?). Is there anything else anyone would like to see with this feature - as they have not gone into a lot of detail as to what we can expect.

SaintTodd
Posts: 48
Joined: 20 October 2015, 23:26

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby SaintTodd » 29 March 2017, 21:24

11 is more than twice 5, correct? And more than half of 17? And yes, casualties will shift these numbers, but it's also important to remember that those casualties represent more than just spp, they represent lost gold and development for the team on the wrong end. So, yes the new player will fall behind at a slower rate if both players play against the AI.

Miraskadu
Posts: 231
Joined: 08 March 2016, 03:05

Re: Playing a league with a mix of human players and AI teams

Postby Miraskadu » 30 March 2017, 03:54

11 is more than twice 5, correct? And more than half of 17?
And 5 is less than a third of 17, which is close to double of 8. :o What are you trying to say?

Why are you comparing relativ margin vs total difference? Instead of being 6 spp ahead of the new team the exp coach after playing one AI game is now 12 spp ahead.

Also the main issue is still on who do those spp fall? Human team, do you want the spp on your thrower or on your blitzer? Dwarve team on your blitzer or on your troll slayers? If your facing two simliar skilled coaches of against each other you most likely will score with your score threads, hence the spp for the new coach against the AI will land on those, while the exp coach can score with slower developing players.

And yes, casualties will shift these numbers, but it's also important to remember that those casualties represent more than just spp, they represent lost gold and development for the team on the wrong end. So, yes the new player will fall behind at a slower rate if both players play against the AI.
From casulties, only 2/3 are perm casulties. I excluded cas since it will make the prediction slightly more horrid for the new coach. See above gaining spp on players that need it. If an experienced coach looses a player and he gets him back as a rookie versus the AI, just feed him 2 TD and bam he is not a rookie anymore.

SPP spread is important, more important many times than just racking in high spp returns on the wrong players, which will just cause bloat.
What do you think of some of the suggestions in my earlier post? For example being able choose from the single player league types with more experienced AI teams, and being able to turn player teams into AI teams (either permanently if they drop out, or temporarily for holidays etc?). Is there anything else anyone would like to see with this feature - as they have not gone into a lot of detail as to what we can expect.
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I would not mind seeing TV buffed AI teams, anything that might make them an actual challenge for the league. And that is still a big might. Or make them designable with the team editor.

Setting a dropped out team to AI control, why not. The easiest solution to this in my humble opinion would be to allow to make AI teams with the team builder. So you could just rebuild that exact team and plug it into the competition.

Setting a team temporarly under AI control, I would personally not like or do, I rather take the admin loss for a missed game. Since the AI is to terrible and yes I will gain the MVP for sure, but also might loose my players to do stupid AI plays. And that is nothing I want. As an option sure, make as many choices for the player as there can be. It is just not something I want.

Just the idea that including AI will somehow flatten the learning curve or make the learning curve more enjoyable, doesn't hold any water in my eyes. You achieve way better results by coaching and mentoring new coaches and telling them what mistakes they are making. Instead of pitching them against a non sensible AI. And as far as I am aware the rookie league does a wondorous job at that. And for full transperency I play in the ReBBL, but I'm not affiliated with the rookie league. ;)


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