Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Share your ideas and Suggestions about Blood Bowl 2.
Lexingtond
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Lexingtond » 25 April 2017, 13:42

Thank you all for your responses and opinions and for partaking in this discussion.

[1415 words incoming:]

There are many aspects to consider, of course, but let me first take a second here and acknowledge just how impressive it is that Plasmoid is THE actual Bret designer and that he is partaking in this discussion.I have never before played any game, computer or board, with such a direct link to the actual designers so I really want to make a note of how great it makes me feel that you actually take an interest in our opinions. Thank you for that.

If I get to role play as a designer for a little bit, there are two broad categories for us to consider: how good the team is (gameplay) and how it looks/feels/interacts (fluff). Then at the same time we must consider the two different aspects of gameplay: a single match / short tournament and then the Champions cup type of deal where teams are playing 30-100 games; If you know your team will only play 6 games you will probably develop your players differently than if you know you will be playing it for lets say 50 matches. So I want to point out that all of my thought here below are based on and thought out for long league play not for "out of the box" gameplay for a single match.

Taking those things into account I base my opinion on the following (dare I say... argument?) not to persuade or belittle others and their opinions but rather to further explain myself and establish that my opinion is not just caught out of thin air.

Now, I completely agree with what plasmoid says here: http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/BBBretonnians_design.htm that "Every Blood Bowl team should have a niche, a design goal, which makes it unique." and so I started this thread to voice my opinion that I frankly consider the Blood Bowl 2 bretonnian team to be "non-canon" or in the very least missing its already strongly recognizable niche element from the old world.

To elaborate: Not that I am some expert on the matter, but to me there are three things that define Bretonnia:

1) Armour (knights)
2) Horses (knights)
3) The blessing of the lady (knights)

[These are just short titles for broad categories so don't start nit-picking my choice of words because they are quite loosely chosen]

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1) The first two words on the lexicanum bretonnia site are "heavily" and "armoured" followed by "...gilded, decked out in layers of steel..." (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bretonnia) . So my original idea was to just give the team a little tweak by raising the armour of the all important blitzers to 9. Since then a suggestion has been made to rather raise the STR access blockers to AV9 and that seems like a fine idea as well. I thought this could easily be doable without having to go through the strenuous process of designing and implementing new rules, new players or new positionals because it has already been done with the human catchers.

The argument by Plasmoid against AV9 that "grail knights would never play blood bowl" is in my opinion very harsh interpretation as that same standard does not seem to apply to the other races. High Elf Princes being the most obvious example. I mean, if noble knights who crave honor, competition and victory do not want to partake in such a hugely popular sporting event, why would for example Trolls Slayers want to? or Dark Elf assassins? Witch elves? War Dancers? Back Orcs?

Why is the bretonnia team the only team that is supposed to be made up solely from the ranks of the hoi polloi of its society when so many other teams include both unique and/or upper-class society members in theirs? I mean nobles in the real world play sports polo, golf, tennis and what not vigorously. All of which have a lot in common with Blood Bowl ;)

Having 4 AV9 pieces would then at the same time contribute to the gameplay aspect which I believe to be justifiable as well since bretonnia seem to be trailing in that department as well. Eventually how "good" this change would be gameplay wise would 100% be in relation to what "balancing acts" the design team would take to accommodate this buff as raising the AV to 9 without raising the price of the players would be a big buff, while raising thair AV9 and their cost by 30k would not really be a buff at all gameplay wise, while still fulfilling fluff bullet point 1.

Raising the movement value to 8 does not seem to fit the fluff IMO and is more aimed at balancing the gameplay aspect of the team. It might do a lot, maybe too much even according to some people on this thread, while everyone seems to agree that raising the AV to 9 would not brake the game or team in any way.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

2) Adding horses (knights) to the game would be very hard and require a lot of work.

The best way to do it though would be to just copy paste the bull centaur stats and make a new doll of a man riding a steed/pony.

If this would be doable, MAN! would we finally live up to our name as a running team!!! That one positional would bring in AV9, add STR4 which would be justifiable do to the mount, AG2 cause holding a ball while steering a horse is hard, and movement 6 + sprint + sure feet would also fit perfectly. This would also further add to the niche that "bretonnian players are expensive" and at the same time balance bretonnia´s progression as if we had access to 1-2 bull centaurs, 4 blitzers, and 4 blockers, the balance between the skillfull blitzers that kind of fade away in high TV and the skill-less bull centaurs that have sooo much promise at high TV would make the team very interesting to develop.

Being so expensive would then work as a balancing factor as a TV 1.000.000 team coach would have to make some really hard choices.

Having access to so many strong players would also justify the current expensive re-rolls.

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3) The blessing of the lady.

This is another elment that is just simply missing from the team's design. There are so many ways to implement some surt of "lucky" factor to the bretonnian team:

-Blitzers start with pro rather than catch
-Blitzers have thick skull
-Blitzers have regeneration

Again I feel Plasmoid is very strickt/ harsh against bretonnia with his "No weird stuff" approach as many teams in blood bowl have alot of weird stuff going for them and bretonnia could very well use some. If humans being AV9 is a problem due to T3, then implementing "The Blessing of the Lady" as a thick skull or regeneration roll would be an interesting alternate way to make them live longer. Regeneration on blitzers would IMO be a very cool interpration of the knights' strength of will and/or faith. I mean, if werewolves and skeletons get it then why not blessed knights?

A much easier way of implementing "The blessing of the lady" would be to not change a thing but lower the rerolls to all the way down to 80k. This would also create a niche for Bretonnia as "the re-roll team"; not strong, not fast, but lucky!!! This would be very cool as then the halfling cook would become bretonnia´s worst enemy and all sorts of hilarity would ensue.

Being lucky would also fit the peasants' fend skill allocation very well as the skill is supposed to be reserved for very skilled fighters per its description, which the farmers are not. But one could say that they are just so damn lucky that sometimes they get away from a block totally unscathed. (yes, I am reaching here so lets end this)
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So to sum up:

-I feel that the bretonnia team is not a real bretonnia team because it is missing the three defining elements of Bretonnia.

-A lot of people seem to agree that bretonnia is not a strong team gameplay wise either so some changes might be warranted.

-Raising AV to 9 would be easily implemented, fit the fluff and improve the team without braking it.

-Creating a new piece would take a lot of work. Giving Bretonnia access to Bull Centaurs (with new dolls) could be a short cut.

-Other ways to represent protection/armour/toughness/strength of will are available such as thick skull or regeneration.

-Giving bretonnia the "lucky" niche trough the pro skill or inexpensive re-rolls would also be easy to implement and would help the AG3 STR3 AV8 average blokes have a fighting chance!

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dode74
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby dode74 » 25 April 2017, 14:31

Bret WFB armies are not the same thing as a Bret team.

Nobles may well go to war in far heavier armour than they would go to play BB in: their mobility in war is provided by horses, which are not allowed on the pitch: riding animals are banned from the BB pitch, as has been said already, and an honourable race like Brets would be unlikely to routinely break that rule. Lighter armour to aid their mobility would make sense even from a fluff perspective.

IF there is a gameplay argument to improve Brets (is there?) then RRs would be the logical first step. Drop them to 50k and it'll give them better initial build options, meaning either 3 RRs with a full-positional roster, or 2 and 12 men. This would offer a small buff across the entire range of TVs without changing the team in terms of gameplay.
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SirIronclad
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby SirIronclad » 25 April 2017, 15:17

Yeah, there's actually no reason for Brets to have more expensive RRs than Humans. Humans with their Block + Strength access on Blitzers are actually bashier than Brets, especially with an Ogre. And although Peasants are 40k they're still overpriced and not worth the extra pricey RRs in a million years.

Like I keep saying, Brets are just too expensive for what they are in general, especially on starting rosters.

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Darkson
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Darkson » 25 April 2017, 16:40

@Lexingtond - first off, Plasmoid is not an "actual designer", and has never claimed to be - he is just a player, a random "guy off the internet" that has put a lot of effort into his house rules and had the good fortune to have some of his ideas picked up. He wasn't even on the official Rules Committee (which I've seen others claim for him [not him himself]).

If you want to talk to an "actual designer" then look for GalakStarscraper on BB forums - he was the main driving force behind the rules this game is based on.


As for Brets not following the fluff, well you can argue for and against that till the cows come home. I really don't like this team, nor any other Bret team I've seen (I personally feel there's already a Bret team in BB, it's called "Humans") but to defend Plasmoid and his choices, he has listened to what the wider BB community has had to say on it. One of his earlier versions was a lot more like a WFB army walking onto the field, with (imo) stupid names like "Knight of the Field" and "Knight of the Line". Thankfully he listened to others and changed it (a lot).

I get that you disagree with it (the fluff, Blitzers' AV etc etc), but you'll find a lot more people agree with it, even if they don't like team itself.
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Niessuh
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Niessuh » 25 April 2017, 17:23

lowering RR to 50K or even 40K sounds really interesting... it would be worth a test

SaintTodd
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby SaintTodd » 29 April 2017, 00:45


I get that you disagree with it (the fluff, Blitzers' AV etc etc), but you'll find a lot more people agree with it, even if they don't like team itself.
I see no evidence of that. Looks to me like at least half of the people who have opinions on the subject and are open to changes in general, are open to this idea.

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dode74
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby dode74 » 29 April 2017, 04:22

Expressed an opinion.
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plasmoid
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby plasmoid » 29 April 2017, 11:08

Hi all,
Just wanted to reply to Lexingtond's thoroughly argued wall of text ;)

Darkson, I think you've misread him. He didn't take me to be designer of the game, just the "Bret designer" - which I am, (just not in any official capacity, if that is what you were getting at).
Lexingtond - I'm also not the guy ro persuade, because Focus can change the team as they see fit.

Either way - I know we won't quite agree on these things, so I'll try to briefly explain my thinking behind the things you're asking about:
(1) "Heavily armoured".
I get what the Bretonnian army is like. But to me the Bretonnian army is not the right foundation for a BB team. IMO the Bretonnian nation is. I was brought up on warhammer fantasy roleplay, not warhammer fantasy battle.
So, to me that means "harsh feudal hierarchy", "downtrodden commoners" and "daring nobility/knighthood", not heavy armor and war horses.
(And then there's the argument that heavy armor + T3 = AV8)

(2) "super knights"
I think that the argument could go either way here. There are certainly some very iconic player types from WFB in BB. Like Wardancers.
On the other hand, special player types are most often (but not always) based on the weakest of their kind. There are Chaos Warriors, sure, but not Chaos Champions. Troll Slayers - but not Giant Slayers or Dragon Slayers. And the stats are often modest. Imagine how many Elf teams would have AG5 players if we went straight from fluff text.

So, when I created my team, I based the blitzers on the lowest order of knights - knights errant - who are out to prove themselves doing risky stuff. Like playing BB.
My original version (from 15 years ago) had 0-2 knights errant, no knights of the realm (who are busy managing a realm), 0-2 questing knights (who could be questing for the BB trophy) and no grail knights (who are busy guarding a grail shrine). When I eventually cut the kinds of knight from 2 to just 1, I went with the less powerful one, to not make these humans weirdly more powerful than other humans.

I just don't think that AV8 belongs on a semi-regular T3 human/creature. And the graphics decision to play in clanking plate mail is not one that I agree with.
That's my thinking anyway :)

To my mind, Brets could get a price break on the rerolls just fine. Right now the high price is to reflect that mixing Ill-trained commoners with arrogant high-borns is bound to cause disruption. But an argument could just as well be made for well drilled nobles and commoners who are used to taking ordets (or else!)

Kind regards
Martin

Daggerheart
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Daggerheart » 10 May 2017, 17:16

Bretonnian blitzers SHOULD AND MUST get AV9... there is no one on earth with IQ higher than 50 that should fight vs this. IF you HAVE IQ lower than 50.... stay OUT of ANY game, go clean toilets with your toothbrush (preferably a french one) for the rest of your life and SMILE, smile ALL time.

Ok, argument set. NOW change the AV value! NOW!
Last edited by Daggerheart on 11 May 2017, 14:12, edited 1 time in total.

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dode74
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby dode74 » 10 May 2017, 18:10

"If you disagree you're stupid".

Yep, I'm convinced...
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