Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

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Darkson
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Darkson » 10 May 2017, 19:19

Only people with an IQ below 40 post the type of post above (well, I say post - they mutter it and someone types it for them).

Only people that need someone to type for them think Bret Blitzers should be AV9.


[Stupid post in response to Daggerheart's stupid post.]
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.

Lexingtond
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Lexingtond » 12 May 2017, 11:23

Hello again,

Sorry for the late reply Plasmoid, but better late than never.

Now I know you never asked for any of this criticism so this thread might seem a little negative and unjust, but I guess since I already started this I might as well finish.

As I said in my last post I think it is very obvious that the Bretonnian team is designed with a completely different standard and/or ideology than the rest of the blood bowl teams. As I already mentioned this I will do my absolute best to not just repeat what I said in the last post but please forgive me if some of my answers might seem on the short side of courteous this time around.

1. The "only Joe Schmoes play blood bowl" argument

Plasmoid, I get where you were going with the whole "Bretonnian nation" thing, but no other team in blood bowl is like that. All the other teams are designed to represent the defining characteristics of its particular race so I do not understand why you feel the need to handicap bretonnia in this way. One might argue that the Human and High Elf teams are the exception here but they have a role as a general/middle-ground type of teams, but even so, the human blitzers having M7 and A8 are obviously not regular Joes and the High Elf catchers are obviously supposed to be the scouting White Lion troops, so these teams are NOT made up of the hoi polloi either.If Whights, Bull Centaurs, Treemen, Trolls and Vampires can find a reason to play Blood Bowl then there is no reason for knights not to if not only to conquer these monsters.

Your interpretation that Heavy armour + T3 = AV8 does not work as a general law either, as regular humans get AV8 in Blood bowl and they are not heavily armoured, neither in "human society" nor in the army.

2. The "no superknights" argument.

Ok, so lets say that Wardancers, Chaos Warriors, Troll Slayers and such are all "novices" of their particular type in Blood Bowl. That does not change the fact that even a rooky noble knight would get his dad to buy him heavy armour before partaking in such a violent sport as Blood Bowl. Not that real life examples have anything to do with Blood Bowl, but just look at jousting for example. The armour of jousting knights was basically a fortress on horseback no matter if the knight was in training, a champion or a real knight.

If a real "super knight" was to be represented in blood bowl, he would have a lot more going for him than just AV9! He would probably have mighty blow, nerves of steel, stand firm, guard, STR4 + AG4 (look at Griff) AND AV9 as well!

You also keep referring to knights errant in this regard which I just don't understand cause knights errant had a 2+ armour save just like everyone else in the Bretonnian army (barring peasants - of course)...


But that is just the fluff side.

Since I am going all out, let me keep going and criticize the playability aspect of your design as well (please forgive me).

3. The Re-rolls

What army/faction/race in warhammer is most famous for being unruly, unorganized, undisciplined and constantly suffering from internal arguing and fighting?

Orcs and Goblins of course.

And what do their re-rolls cost?

60.0000

Having to pay 70.000 for their rerolls is basically saying that Bretonnians are more unruly than Orcs and Goblins.

4. Comparison of costs

As I have repeatedly stated I think it is very obvious that the Bretonnian team is designed to a completely different standard than the rest of the blood bowl teams.

If we take a look at the peasants for example, they cost 40.000 are 6-3-2-7 and start with fend.

Compare that to a human line-man that costs 50.000 is 6-3-3-8 and starts with no skill.

The lineman's extra agility and armour is worth 70.000 while fend is worth 20.000, meaning that a human lineman is a "better deal" by 50.000, so to speak.

An ork lineman is 5-3-3-9, and his 2 extra armour and one extra agility is worth 100.000 while the peasant's extra movement and fend are worth 50.000 so the ork linemen is a 50.000 "better deal".

A High Elf lineman 6-3-4-8 = 50.000 better deal.

I can go on...

Hob Goblins have AG3 = 20.000 better deal

Wood Elf linemen have m7 and ag4 = 50.000 better deal.

This makes peasants the worst players in blood bowl 2 by a mile.

The Blockers are also pretty bad, as they are a worse deal than human blitzers by 10.000 and human throwers by 20.000

The blitzers don't even make up for this it as they are "only" of equal comparative value to DE + HE blitzers and human catchers.

I could go on...

5. Skills of positionals

Peasants = OK, so peasants´value in gold doesn't hold up in comparison to other linemen but that does not stop them from being even worse as players as 20.000 of their comparative value comes from their fend skill which is a very bad skill fit for an AV7 piece. I say so because having only AG2 peasants can not dodge away making them very non-mobile. To make up for that their "niche" is to get hit first and then be free to move. OK, that is a good idea and would work on any other piece except an AV7 one. I have on multiple occasions (I have many MANY screens shots saved) had 6+ peasants hurt, killed or K.Od in one match. If their job is to take a hit for their betters, then AV8 on them would go a long way to balance their outrageous cost and utter failure to fulfill their given role. Wrestle would actually be alot better for peasants than fend as it would actually save them from being hit. I aslo happen to believe that the wrestle skill fits the dirty, unagile, unskilled peasant very well as they would not know how to fight (block, fend, dodge) and so would most certainly result to bar-fighting techniques if their lives depended on it.

Blockers = this would have been a good place for the fend skill IMO. Having AV8 they can take a hit and having AG3 means that they could even move away if blitzt or juggernauted making the "rolling cage" tactic a viable one for bretonnia. The choice of wrestle would have been better for peasants as being the only piece with access to Guard (on a team of knights by the way!) giving them a skill that takes them off their feet is a very bad fit. You even suggest that they could become ballhandlers since they have access to Strong Arm, but having a passer/ball carrier with wrestle is a horrible idea. Believe me, I have tried.

Blitzers = The blitzers' starting skills just don't fit each other that well. They start of as all-rounders, which is fine, but again, their lack of AV9, regeneration, thick skull or any means of durability makes them die A LOT. And they don't even have to die to be useless, an AG or STR 2 blitzer is worthless, a 110.000 AV7 is too much of a risk, and a M6 blitzer has lost it's only advantage. I have time and time again built up a blitzer to have (block) dodge, sidestep and fend, finally making them defensive and mobile enough to come into his own, only to have him killed or mauled in the next match.

Since you have already said that they should be running and not passing, stating with sure feet or sure hands be a much better starting skill than catch. Having access to passing and being so brave (dauntless) having them start with Nerves of Steal would even be a better fit than catch. But I don't mind your choice of starting skill if the blitzers were allowed to enjoy longevity, hence the title of this thread.

-->

But why am I writing this?

Why am I laying into plasmoid's design like this?

Is it because I am not good enough of a player myself to win with bretonnia. Yes.
Is it because I am very frustrated to only have around 80 wins with bretonnia in 200 games. Yes.

But it is also because I come from a nation of only 350.000 people, and I am spoiled rotten being used to actually having a voice and being a unique special snowflake.

So, dear forum members if you would please state what you agree and/or disagree with then perhaps some of the higher-ups might actually take note and make Brettons great again! (or for once in this instance).

Debaser
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Debaser » 12 May 2017, 11:55

brets are totally fine now imo. one of few races that can really have different playstyles and skillbuilds.

yes, playing them is a challenge, but blood bowl is about pain and suffering ;)

Lexingtond
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Lexingtond » 12 May 2017, 12:33

brets are totally fine now imo. one of few races that can really have different playstyles and skillbuilds.

yes, playing them is a challenge, but blood bowl is about pain and suffering ;)
Hey Debaser,

Could you be more specific?

Most Bret teams go dodge > Sidestep on their Blitzers and Guard > Mighty Blow on their Blockers, all being the most common skills taken in the game.

Where is the different playstyle and skillbuilds?

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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Darkson » 12 May 2017, 15:24

4. Comparison of costs
Positions are costed to balance their roster, not necessarily compared to the same statline on a different roster (see human thrower vs orc thrower).
Is it because I am very frustrated to only have around 80 wins with bretonnia in 200 games. Yes.
So you have a 40% win percentage with a team that was designed to be a tier 1.5 roster (so not in the top drawer) in an incomplete game where you are always facing tier 1 teams - yeah, it's the rosters fault...
Last edited by Darkson on 12 May 2017, 15:32, edited 1 time in total.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.

Lexingtond
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Lexingtond » 12 May 2017, 15:32

4. Comparison of costs
Positions are costed to balance their roster, not necessarily compared to the same statline on a different roster (see human thrower vs orc thrower).
Ok fair enough, but as I mentioned the blockers also fall short as positionals and the blitzers are just not good enough to make up for the other two lacking pieces as they do not come at a discount; are reasonably priced.

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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby dode74 » 12 May 2017, 15:32

Ok fair enough, but as I mentioned the blockers also fall short as positionals and the blitzers are just not good enough to make up for the other two lacking pieces as they are reasonably priced.
And yet their performance is fine as a team...
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Lexingtond
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby Lexingtond » 17 May 2017, 00:07

Ok fair enough, but as I mentioned the blockers also fall short as positionals and the blitzers are just not good enough to make up for the other two lacking pieces as they are reasonably priced.
And yet their performance is fine as a team...
Define "fine"

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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby dode74 » 17 May 2017, 06:22

Within the Tier 1 brackets as defined by the game designers.
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plasmoid
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Re: Raising Bretonnian Blitzers' Armour Value to 9

Postby plasmoid » 17 May 2017, 21:29

Hi Lexingtond,
you are indeed a special snowflake - and is such, you deserve a reply :)
I should probably point out that no matter what I say here, the decision is firmly out of my hands, so I'm just explaining why the roster is the way it is.

Also - if I seem reluctant to change my mind, it is because the current team has been forged in discussion, often by opinions contrary to my own. The team has changed a lot over the years, and I'd rather not flip-flip endlessly.

Finally, I should also note, that my intent was not to make a tier 1.5 team (40-50 win percentage), but to make a low tier 1 team (tier 1 being 45-55%). So, once all of the weaker teams have been added with legendary edition, if the Brets come in below 45%, then my preference would be a buff of some kind.

Anyway, on to your criticisms:

1. The "only Joe Schmoes play blood bowl" argument
2. The "no superknights" argument.
I too wanted to "represent the defining feature of a particular race". Not a particular army.
So, I went with "feudal, bold and flashy" rather than "tanky, killy, killy (on horseback)".

I disagree strongly that Knight Errant are the Hoi Polloi. Looking at what a humans is in BB, the Errant Blitzer is based on one of the best human positionals. With 2 skills stacked on top. IMO, that's already pushing it.

As for the armor thing
>>>Your interpretation that Heavy armour + T3 = AV8 does not work as a general law either, as regular humans get AV8 in Blood bowl and they are not heavily armoured<<<
...Actually, the original 3rd edition human miniatures wore a lot of armor.
IMO, the rule does hold. For all the species in BB, none have positionals with 3 different armor values without magical augmentation. There is an un-/lightly armoured type, and a more heavily armoured type (AV+1).
Stacking on the kind of armor that requires a warhorse to carry you would leave you unable to play BB.
If it didn't, I think other species than humans would have caught on.

3. The Re-rolls
I concede that rerolls could have been 60K just fine.

That said, if orcs and gobbos are so uniquely unruly, then we need rationales for a lot of teams with 70K rerolls. Once we've come up with those, coming up with a similar explanation for Brets isn't hard.

4. Comparison of costs
Let me stop you right there. Pricing doesn't work like you think.
Just compare linemen for skaven and wood elfs, or humans and high elfs.
There is even an available pricing formula if you look for it.

Short version:
Hobgobs are 6337 for 40K
Take away 1 AG and add a skill and you end up at 40K again.

5. Skills of positionals
I get that you dislike the skills. And I get that they could just as well have been done differently.
But they weren't.
And I disagree they are useless.

Peasants: It's a cheap player. 40K. Like a gobbo.
I don't put them next to opponents unless it serves a specific purpose.
If opponents come to them, I try to get off cheap blocks or Fend reduces the number of hits they take.
I skill them with wrestle (or block). Or DP for trades.

Blockers: You can do lots of stuff with these. People who have done well with them recommend focusing on Guard and Stand Firm - to bolster the space-control of the team. Yes, even with wrestle. And yes, I've had a Yeoman thrower be a key component of one of my teams - but it isn't the most obvious path.

As for the blitzers, yes, I could have heaped on better skills.
But that wouldn't mean that 'fun' skills would then get picked.
Just more generic/powerful ones.
I'm very happy with how the blitzer plays.
Block+Dauntless is a good combo.
Catchers are usually a liability, but 4 Catch players that you actually want on the pitch gives lots of unique options for the running (not stalling) game.
As for high mortality, they're like most players. At least they start with Block. And quickly get to Blodge.
That's BB for ya' :)

Cheers
Martin


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