And they say the AI is to hard...

This is the zone for the ones who prefer to play against the machine.
Howitzer
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Howitzer » 23 April 2013, 09:46

I think I've tried them all at some point haha. Mainly stick to the 'easier' teams (humans, orcs, standard Elves). I did enjoy Dwarfs and Dark Elves but to little avail :P

Still reading up some tactics and strategies to try out with some :) I now know to not always play a combat heavy game, avoid dice where-ever possible (patience helps here lol) and sometimes staying on the floor is a good idea! :oops:

jonnygreg2003
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby jonnygreg2003 » 23 April 2013, 13:27

Some things I really hope they address in Blood Bowl 2:
- AI has no concept of how far in the half you are. It should try to make something happen if it's not in the lead, it's turn 15 and it has no guys in scoring range. (And by "make something happen" I don't mean run the ball the wrong way. Or setup a cage deep within its own half)
It's criminal that after three versions of the game the programmers haven't even touched the AI in the regard you mention! How hard could it be to check the turn and if they have the ball try and score!!! I'm coming to the conclusion that this is the number one thing that really annoys me about the AI. There are many others but this is tops.

As a whole the AI isn't that challenging but if you made incremental changes (such as trying to score) then some of the matches I've won would be draws and some of the matches I've drawn would be losses.

Slightly further down the priority list would be to get the computer to crowd surf my players if there is the opportunity. For example, if there is one of my players on the sidelines and on of the computer's players is adjacent to it then (all things being equal) they should have a go.

Come on guys. Get this (and the other things) sorted.

Nereid
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Nereid » 29 April 2013, 11:16

First: I'm new to blood bowl. I have purchased all three versions but spend most of the time in the legendary and chaos edition.

Well, some of critics of the AI are correct. The AI doesn't know anything about the upcoming end of the match and I often see them trying to score but without any chance to reach the baseline in time.

But the AI does quite well most of the time. Sure it's not like an advanced chess algorithm that cuts an average amateur into pieces, but it's not too easy to beat and had caused me a lot of trouble in between.

I'm a programmer myself and have to tell you, that's it is quite complicated to create an AI with even mediocre skills. And there are many games out there that are much worse than BB:CE.

Sure, there is room for improvement, but BB is not a very popular game and I think the budget is very limited. So I don't think there is too much hope for a better AI. And the AI is OK so far.

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Darkson
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Darkson » 29 April 2013, 12:20

First: I'm new to blood bowl. [snip] And the AI is OK so far.
Because you're new to Blood Bowl. The AI sucks against even an average, though experienced, coach.
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Proxi Winther Rex
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Proxi Winther Rex » 29 April 2013, 14:09

First: I'm new to blood bowl. [snip] And the AI is OK so far.
Because you're new to Blood Bowl. The AI sucks against even an average, though experienced, coach.
this...

I have a win percent at somewhere around 15 % online... :? (I'm a pretty bad coach)
But I still haven't lost to the AI in over 2 years...
Image

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VoodooMike
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby VoodooMike » 29 April 2013, 16:39

I'm a programmer myself and have to tell you, that's it is quite complicated to create an AI with even mediocre skills. And there are many games out there that are much worse than BB:CE.
I'm a programmer and have to tell you... being a programmer doesn't automagically give you insight into all aspects of programming, so that's an appeal to false authority right there. The AI in this game is pretty terrible, and I can't think of any games that have worse overall AI when the outcome of single player games depends entirely on it.

As someone who has written game "AI" for board games in the past, I assure you that the concept only seems daunting and massively complex when you imagine that it involves trying to teach the computer to play like a human. It never does. It involves breaking the game down into tiny, numeric values that the computer can use to make very basic moves that serve to challenge the human player without any deep thought on the computer's part. It also involves playing to a computer's strengths... letting it do lots of trial and error in a short time in memory and then going with whatever worked best (in terms of those abstracted numeric values).
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

Harbinger8
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Harbinger8 » 29 April 2013, 18:27

VoodooMike, I am calmly asking how are you any less guilty of "an appeal to false authority" than Nereid?
I have seen no work on the market that has you on the credit list (VoodooMike).
Moreover, I just got done asking folks I know in the gaming industry in California if they have ever heard of a "VoodooMike" as a programmer and they said, "No."
So could you calmly explain how you are any less guilty than Nereid?

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VoodooMike
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby VoodooMike » 29 April 2013, 18:42

VoodooMike, I am calmly asking how are you any less guilty of "an appeal to false authority" than Nereid?
Well, I happen to know he's making an appeal to false authority because I have first-hand experience in the field. Whether you believe that or not isn't relevant to anyone but you... though in terms of programming I imagine the community typically believes that I am a programmer, having had experience with programs I've written for use with this game.

In the past there have been discussions about the game's AI, and about AI design as a whole. No doubt members of the community will have made their own decisions about my qualifications based on those. :)
I have seen no work on the market that has you on the credit list (VoodooMike).
"the market" eh? I think you have a pretty loose grasp of the profession.
So could you calmly explain how you are any less guilty than Nereid?
For the good of the community as a whole again? I'm pretty sure the community as a whole knows me well enough already. If you, personally, find it to be unsatisfactory well.... darn.
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

Harbinger8
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Harbinger8 » 29 April 2013, 18:56

So, no explanation VoodooMike?
Just your version of witty by-play.
Why?

The programming "market" is a very wide field of endeavour.
You can not give us any proof that you can do more than just tinker with the BB CG code VoodooMike?
That you actually make your living as a programmer?

Every programmer our there can give someone the credits they have worked on.
Potential employers can simply take that list and verify that that this particular programmer worked successfully on that company's product.
Why VoodooMike are you trying to make it sound much harder than it is?
My programmer friend I sourced to first in this little discussion, a programmer at Melaleuca Inc., a wellness firm, is just chuckling at your attempts to not answer the question.

Come on VoodooMike, give us at least one.
Any programmer worth their salt and having been in the industry for any serious time can give five projects they have been a part of.
My friend says on the average, a programmer only sticks with any one company for five years max, as a programmer, before moving on to another corp so as to increase and improve their skills through experiencing different types of projects out there.

I am really interested Voodoo.
I would like to take a look at what projects you claim to have been part of the programming.
Stateside projects preferable, but I have friends in the UK that can check on any in their "neighborhood".

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VoodooMike
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby VoodooMike » 29 April 2013, 23:37

Blah blah blah blah BLAH!HHHH!HH!
Almost everything you post here, or in other threads where you're fighting, is predicated on the deeply mistaken impression that what you do or do not believe is somehow important to anybody but you. You keep imagining you are somehow representing the community by referring to yourself as "us" or saying that your concerns are concerns of "the community as a whole".

The ironic part is that you keep demanding proof of various things because, you say, people's word (nomatter who those people happen to be, other than you) are unsupported hearsay and lies... but you yourself bring absolutely nothing to the table except random unsupported declarations.

So, believe what you want - say... that I'm a 13 year old girl who can barely turn on a computer, having only skipped ahead to reverse-engineering copy protected software for the one day to do some BB work... or maybe I have my older brother do it and pass it off as my own! Either way, what you believe is relevant only to you, and until you make yourself matter to others as something other than a mild skin irritant, your beliefs themselves won't mean anything.

But by all means... keep running around demanding things from people that they don't owe you, and imagining it's making a difference!
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.


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