And they say the AI is to hard...

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A-r-c-h-o-n
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby A-r-c-h-o-n » 30 April 2013, 09:32

I must say I liked the discussion between dode and voodomike better then the one here ongoing with Harbinger8. At least, they argued over facts and not emotions.

By the way, there is no "true" AI in any of the games (and it shouldn't be) i played recently. But I don't think, it would be easy to write a "set of rules" (well - lets call it game-ai from now on), that would challenge an experienced gamer. After all, the rules are more complex then chess, and it took some of the most brilliant computer scientists decades to develop programs, that are able to beat a human chess-player.

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VoodooMike
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby VoodooMike » 30 April 2013, 11:42

A-r-c-h-o-n wrote:By the way, there is no "true" AI in any of the games (and it shouldn't be) i played recently. But I don't think, it would be easy to write a "set of rules" (well - lets call it game-ai from now on), that would challenge an experienced gamer. After all, the rules are more complex then chess, and it took some of the most brilliant computer scientists decades to develop programs, that are able to beat a human chess-player.

No, it took them decades to develop a program that could beat the chess grandmasters, not to make software that could trounce 99.99% of human players. I myself have written chess AI that was able to beat most novice players, and the code was very short. Things in the vein of what you're talking about, the stuff meant to dominate master players, are more a matter of hardware than software.

Now, all this said, the point of writing game AI is not to be able to beat the best players, it's to be able to give a variable level of challenge to novice and intermediate players. One of the key elements is being able to ensure your software will NOT beat players too easily, but can be ramped up to some degree by simply changing some of the numbers. In theory, the AI should turn new players into intermediate players in preparation for online play, giving them at least the foundations of a skillset for playing against real people.

As to whether or not this sort of thing is "really AI" or not, that's more philosophy than computer science, since you're making pretty broad assumptions about the nature of human intelligence in the first place.
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

A-r-c-h-o-n
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby A-r-c-h-o-n » 30 April 2013, 12:20

To write a game-ai, that could help novice players to learn how to play or to entertain improver-level players should not be that hard. An AI worth of the word "Intelligence" it contains should have the ability to get better from game to game just by playing (an example, since you asked for a somewhat more precise definition, what I would call AI - most humans are able to learn from their mistakes).

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VoodooMike
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby VoodooMike » 30 April 2013, 13:00

A-r-c-h-o-n wrote:To write a game-ai, that could help novice players to learn how to play or to entertain improver-level players should not be that hard. An AI worth of the word "Intelligence" it contains should have the ability to get better from game to game just by playing (an example, since you asked for a somewhat more precise definition, what I would call AI - most humans are able to learn from their mistakes).

We're breaking from games and into philosophy, as I said. There are entire fields of philosophy related to whether human intelligence is really anything more than a complex set of deterministic responses. Most of the time, when people wave off the idea of artificial intelligence they're sweeping the idea under the rug and taking for granted the idea that there is a serious difference between the two. I'm not convinced there is.

If you want to watch human intelligence come into existence, become a parent. The process of going from what is little more than a lump of flesh to a functioning, thinking human is SLOW and CLUMSY. For that sort of thing you'll be moving into the realm of neural networks, which is a software system that works similarly to neurons... and requires you "train" it with stimulus and output response. Those systems will "learn", but they can't be manipulated easily from their final (or existing) state, which is why you don't see that being used much in games. You can't tell a neural network to "kinda play crappy, but don't throw the game". It's also complex and really really slow to create (much like a thinking person is) and needs someone who has the skills it needs to learn... to train it and give it feedback. The end result is quirky and unpredictable at times (like a person) and you have no guaranteed method for adjusting it at all.

Now, all of this said... everyone knows what we're talking about if we say "Game AI", so nitpicking about the term is kind'v pointless.
Friendly Reminder: Correlation does not equal Causation - tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids if it'll help.

Harbinger8
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Harbinger8 » 30 April 2013, 23:27

Deleted

Simonthemad
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Simonthemad » 01 May 2013, 00:59

I wonder if this will be the next post to get locked after having gone so far off topic?? :roll:

Poliorketes
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Poliorketes » 01 May 2013, 08:02

Howitzer, the problem with playing AI is that you can't really learn the good tricks, as AI rarely uses them. Try to find an experienced player willing to comment your games, that should help a lot. And take a look at this page: http://bbtactics.com/
AI beats me only with really, really bad luck on my side in maybe 1% of my games, mostly with Woodies or Skaven picking of a throw-in that goes wildly of. I'm not a bad player, but I don't play online and have only about 10-20 boardgame matches a year with real opponents.

Howitzer
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Howitzer » 02 May 2013, 13:35

Poliorketes wrote:Howitzer, the problem with playing AI is that you can't really learn the good tricks, as AI rarely uses them. Try to find an experienced player willing to comment your games, that should help a lot. And take a look at this page: http://bbtactics.com/
AI beats me only with really, really bad luck on my side in maybe 1% of my games, mostly with Woodies or Skaven picking of a throw-in that goes wildly of. I'm not a bad player, but I don't play online and have only about 10-20 boardgame matches a year with real opponents.


Thanks Poliorketes, I wanna make some little vids on YouTube so perhaps I can get some comments via those :)

I'll certainly have a look at that site, looks pretty interesting! Don't worry, I'm not one to give up or rage-quit or anything. I wanna get good and I'm willing to practice for it :D

TurfToe
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby TurfToe » 09 September 2013, 01:38

The AI is pathetic. Ive been playing the game for over 2 decades and loose maybe 1 game in 30(on hard) unless Im using stunties then all bets are off. READ the rulebook people. PLAY the boardgame. It will give you a whole new understanding of all aspects of the game.

Moronik
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Moronik » 10 December 2013, 10:50

My friend consistently beats the AI with skaven (or as he calls them: the mice :roll: ) and he has refused to read the rules.... he literally knows no odds whatsoever.


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