And they say the AI is to hard...

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Ba22
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Ba22 » 22 December 2013, 23:49

My friend consistently beats the AI with skaven (or as he calls them: the mice :roll: ) and he has refused to read the rules.... he literally knows no odds whatsoever.
Sounds like my cousin, he played the "Lizards" and basically just clicked with the little ones to get teh ball because they were smaller and harder to hit, and the big ones seemed to be better at killing things and thus he told them to block anything near them.

Hilarious how he beat the Ai everytime with zero knowledge of the game's system, but alas he tried playing us in our league and was disheartened at the fact that he would lose game 6-0. He never was interested enough to go beyond point and click and learn even basic odds of something working, or why tackle zones were dangerous.
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brick128
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby brick128 » 04 March 2014, 04:35

To program a AI for this game is hard. So many choices to make and then keeping in mind the next turn, include the random dice factor?
Making a AI that interprets a (RL)humans next move and dice randomness?

I know it is hard to program this, if not impossible.

Still I think there is a lot of not to hard to realize improvement to the AI.

Things AI does and could be prevented.

Making negative two dice blocks with free players available to make a assist.
I understand AI goes for the negative 2 dice block(some times), but why not move the free player first. Be it it to give a assist or base another opponent.

Making passes with good interceptors in the way while there are free players to block or push interceptors.

First dodging out with the AG2 big guy and then the AG 4 guy only to put it next to each other. Or making blitzes with the really stupid player with no brain next to it, while that same blitz could be done by a measly (free)line men with the same result.

Usually the AI does kind of make sense looking at the bigger picture, but often does the steps in a weird/wrong order.
If the AI has the dice going his/her way it makes the most brilliant plays. But more often if the dice are average it fails, and the dice against makes it as easy as Charlie Sheens dealer.


Also there is another thing fundamentally wrong with the AI.
It is programmed to play standard tactics with teams. And it does it to extremes.

Running teams like Skaven, Elves and the like are always:
Poke a hole, get some players through, protect thrower and pass the ball.
Makes sense. But AI passes the ball no matter what. Interceptors, tackle zones to throw and/or catch, run the ball further to end-zone dodging a gazillion tackle zones.

Building extreme cages for hitting teams.
A Ogre with AG2 dodges out of a tackle zone against a no skill human line men to get a sixth defender in the cage.
Moving back a cage three squares to maintain or get another player in it.


I'm not a programmer, so can't say how they should make it more challenging.

Kaede11
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Kaede11 » 07 March 2014, 19:31

Well I have been looking the XML Files and well I think that "MAYBE" some things could be tweaked to change the behaviour of the AI.

Well... this information is found in DATA/MATCH/AI/AI.xml
I am pretty sure this is by no means the only file related to AI, but hey, it has to do something. By no means I am a programmer, but I'll tell what I have discovered looking here and there. Probably everything has been talked before, but... oh well...

It seems that the AI chooses a "role" for each player of their team. I don't know exactly how, but it does it. Each role is given some "standard" orders which it has to follow.

For example: Let's take a look at the first role listed:

<BallCarrier>
<Strength>1.5</Strength>
<Agility>2</Agility>
<MovementAllowance>1</MovementAllowance>
<ArmorValue>0.5</ArmorValue>

This is the Ball Carrier role. Let's look at another role which should be very different:

- <CatcherProtector>
<Strength>2</Strength>
<Agility>0.5</Agility>
<MovementAllowance>1.5</MovementAllowance>
<ArmorValue>1</ArmorValue>

So after seeing those two, I would guess (and only guess because I have no real clue) that the Catcher protector role is more dedicated to do "Strength" related things than the Ball Carrier role is. Also, The player under the ball Carrier role will attempt more "Agility" plays than a Catcher Protector. To discover if such a thing is real or only a hypotesis, it would be needed to find two players under each role and then alter some of their numbers. Let's say, something like changing the 0.5 agility in the Catcher protector role to 2 and see if that player starts trying to dodge or something like that.

Also, in the general database we can see that each role is under one of three categories: Attack, Melee, Defense.

The Catcher protector role is under "Attack" category and the Ball Carrier role is under no category... and that confuses me. I am not sure if this means that a Playercan be given different roles and they'll change between them depending on the circumstances. Let's say, if a player has carcher protector and Safety roles, maybe when they have the ball uses it's catcher protector instructions and if they are defending uses Safety role instructions.

The main problem is that I can't find where each role is given to the players.

Also in the XML file, the last part contains some text that seems to alter general behaviour of a hole team. Let's see some examples:

- <Orc>
<CoolViolent>0.3</CoolViolent>
<PassRun>0.5</PassRun>
</Orc>

- <Skaven>
<CoolViolent>0.7</CoolViolent>
<PassRun>0.8</PassRun>
</Skaven>

- <Undead>
<CoolViolent>0.2</CoolViolent>
<PassRun>0.3</PassRun>
</Undead>

As we can see, each race has two parameters: Cool or Violent and Pass or Run. The second one obviously chooses between running or passing game and I think that Cool or Violent refers to the amount of Tackles they will attempt. In this case, Orc and undead are programmed to go for a physical game, but orcs are more biased towards the passing game. In the skaven case, they should avoid contact and go for a passing game.

To be honest, I have no idea if this will change anything or if it has been tried before, maybe I just change it and everything remains the same but I will try to change undead running game to a passing game and see what happens. If this works maybe some general adjustments can be made.

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Darkson
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Darkson » 08 March 2014, 04:45

I think one of the AI mod files did all that, and I know a list of suggestions for player "type" changes was sent to Cyanide in the past, but they didn't do anything with it.
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
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Kaede11
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Kaede11 » 08 March 2014, 11:44

But isn't it possible to modify the AI behaviour using these parameters? Even if it is only general behaviour. I know it won't be possible to create an awesome AI, but maybe we could try to decrease the amount of GFI the AI does, for example. Or limit dodging to AGI4 teams. I don't know, something like that.

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Darkson
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby Darkson » 08 March 2014, 15:18

I think one of the AI mod files did all that,
Galak 3:16 says "There is a point in time that a player really should read the rulebook."
Home of the ARBBL
TalkFantasyFootball admin - PM me if you need help.
Nope, I was talking about a 0TTD on a Blitz! using TTM.

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VoodooMike
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Re: And they say the AI is to hard...

Postby VoodooMike » 09 March 2014, 11:39

To program a AI for this game is hard. So many choices to make and then keeping in mind the next turn, include the random dice factor?
Making a AI that interprets a (RL)humans next move and dice randomness?
Totally untrue. There exists proficient AI for games much more complex than Blood Bowl. The idea that complex games require complex AI is mostly a fallacy that comes from non-programmers and which is based on the idea that game AI has to "think" like a human does - it really doesn't.
I think one of the AI mod files did all that, and I know a list of suggestions for player "type" changes was sent to Cyanide in the past, but they didn't do anything with it.
Actually, they incorporated the XML changes into LE, according to discussions from way-back-when.
But isn't it possible to modify the AI behaviour using these parameters? Even if it is only general behaviour. I know it won't be possible to create an awesome AI, but maybe we could try to decrease the amount of GFI the AI does, for example. Or limit dodging to AGI4 teams. I don't know, something like that.
Reducing the risk that the AI takes just makes for boring games in which the AI never scores. The AI already never wins, but it will occasionally score a point due to taking big risks. There's nowhere to take the XML variables that they haven't already been taken years ago, though you can no doubt get a lot of play by randomly changing numbers and letting the placebo effect take you places with your testers. As of LE, many of the XML files have no effect on the game, having had their values hardcoded during development but never returned to pulling from the data files.
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